Blown alky dealio, input??

[Blown 472]

since I am going to retire my 93 lincoln from the road in the fall and put an 11.3 to 1 blown alky 429 in it I am looking for info on running a blown alky dealio, I will be using a hat on the blower and injecting below the hat, and having shit for knowlege on an injected blown alky gig I am looking for a starting point and some tips for a tune up and what to look for. Thanks.

[Craig]

You just have to be different don't cha :D

[Fiat48]

If you are not going to go crazy with boost then you can just use a birdcatcher hat, 80A pump and no need for port nozzles.
Start with 48 hat nozzles, no high speed, idle check at 2lbs and a 60 pill for the first lap. Lean from there.

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by Fiat48
If you are not going to go crazy with boost then you can just use a birdcatcher hat, 80A pump and no need for port nozzles.
Start with 48 hat nozzles, no high speed, idle check at 2lbs and a 60 pill for the first lap. Lean from there.
How much boost would be too much?
Does the pill control the fuel mixture? if I need to fatten it after doing a plug check do I change the pill?
How far away can the fuel tank be?
Can I flush the system with gas at the end of the day?

[lucky]

ARE YOU GOING TO MEDFORD THIS UP COMING WEEKEND ?

[lucky]

WITH MY BUDDY ( HIS CAR IN MY AVATAR ) IF YOU GO SAY HI TO CICIL AND TIM - GOOD PEEPS ! I FOUND OUT TO LATE AND MADE PLANS WITH THE WIFE :confused: iD RATHER GO RACIN'

[Fiat48]

Originally posted by Blown 472
How much boost would be too much?
Does the pill control the fuel mixture? if I need to fatten it after doing a plug check do I change the pill?
How far away can the fuel tank be?
Can I flush the system with gas at the end of the day?
Well, I just ran 24 lbs of boost and didn't hurt the 509. So should be good for that much. Usually I run about 17 lbs and still plenty of fuel.
Pill controls the fuel return. With constant flow injection the fuel is split between the nozzles and what returns to the tank. The more you return (larger the pill) the less fuel the motor sees.
No need to flush system end of the day. Use Pro Blend alcohol lube addtive and you can leave it in there. Blow it out and WD-40 the system if leaving the alcohol in it makes you nervous.
Fuel tank higher than pump is best if possible. Primes easier that way and keeps the pump wet for longer life. Do a belt drive and mount the pump low. Inlet fuel line at least #12. #16 if it is going to the rear of the car. Main line from pump to hat #8. Return line #6. Long return lines offer some resistance in fuel return but can be compensated by larger pill.
Forwarding you a PM on reading alcohol plugs.

[Fiat48]

Originally posted by lucky
ARE YOU GOING TO MEDFORD THIS UP COMING WEEKEND ?
No. Seems everyone wants me to work for a living around here and no time for a while.

[Blown 472]

Any thing I should consider motor wise? I am planing an iron headed, alum rod 429 with a flat tappet cam. Using the motorcraft dist with an msd to fire it.
Also thinking a c6 or c4 trans, do I have to leave with the motor up on the convertor like the alky funny cars leave with such big rpm??

[Fiat48]

Fit it loose in the main bearing clearance dept. I don't think I would trust a nodular crank. I'd use coated bearings if possible. Big gaps on rings...I suggest C&A gapless 2nds. Standard tension oil ring. Forged piston and an extra .001 wall clearance.
Heavy wristpin...180 gram type dealio's...taper wall is better yet.
Don't know about MSD on alky deals. Think I would leave it off and just use a big coil single spark deal.
You just need enough converter to get up on the tire quick. So probably about 4000 stall. C6 and forget the tranbrake deals. Never seen Ford trannys and trans brakes get along. They don't work. Foot brake it. Increase your brake pedal leverage to hold it on the line.
Or if you can forgo the ford religion...put a powerglide behind it with a Hipster trans brake.

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Fiat48
Forwarding you a PM on reading alcohol plugs.
Fiat, I'd like to look at this too if possible...I'm being nudged toward Methanol (if I supply the tunnel ram bottom-half, I'll get a complete mecanical system back in return...no charge...can you say "sponsor?" :D)
LO

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Fiat48
I don't think I would trust a nodular crank.
Off-Topic Special Note: The journal overlap between the 3.0 main and the 2.5 rod journals on the 3.59-stroke 429 makes for some noteworthy strength in that crankshaft...just a BBF entusiast's sidebar!:D
LO

[BAH468]

Fiat, How are you getting so much boost out of your set up? I got 12 lbs this last weekend at 10% over.

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by LakesOnly
Off-Topic Special Note: The journal overlap between the 3.0 main and the 2.5 rod journals on the 3.59-stroke 429 makes for some noteworthy strength in that crankshaft...just a BBF entusiast's sidebar!:D
LO
We will find out, hey lakes what is the skinny on your buddy that runs the 460 nitro deal? what is his combo?

[Kurtis500]

Originally posted by Blown 472
Any thing I should consider motor wise? I am planing an iron headed, alum rod 429 with a flat tappet cam. Using the motorcraft dist with an msd to fire it.
Also thinking a c6 or c4 trans, do I have to leave with the motor up on the convertor like the alky funny cars leave with such big rpm??
ABSOLUTELY leave the MSD off! I ran 6 and 7 ignition with good batteries and never got a good solid pass with a blown injected alcohol motor at 18% over. Even with a mild cam. Too much fuel and boost in the cylinder and the spark was blowing out. I put a Supermag 4 on and first pass was on a fat tune-up and less than a .10 off my best ever. Even started better and idled smoother. You got alot more fuel in the cylinder with alcohol and even harder to light with boost. Flat tappet is fine, forged is best for pistons and crank. Lose the MSD and get a mag. I tried everything but a 16 volt battery to make it work, and it just wouldn't. Gas maybe, but not blown alcohol.

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Blown 472
We will find out, hey lakes what is the skinny on your buddy that runs the 460 nitro deal? what is his combo?
87% nitromethane. 7% overdriven, I think.
Stroke was 4.125" and was a standard BBF crank offset ground and nitrided. The key factors in making his engines live are overkill oil system mods and never over 6500 rpm.
The problem with his set-up was he kept breaking transmission input shafts over and over, no mater what brand shaft he used. One time, the input shaft broke and the tach recorded 10,000 rpm. BBF crank stayed together (indeed, there was minimal load for that brief moment...) NO GARANTEES!:D
I am looking for a Forged BBF truck crank...for different reasons...
And yes, he wants to build the methanol system for me...I'm not 100% decided.
LO

[Fiat48]

Originally posted by LakesOnly
Fiat, I'd like to look at this too if possible...I'm being nudged toward Methanol (if I supply the tunnel ram bottom-half, I'll get a complete mecanical system back in return...no charge...can you say "sponsor?" :D)
LO
I sent it to you. The pictures are not the greatest but adequate. These are the plugs from 4 runs in the boat.

[Fiat48]

Originally posted by BAH468
Fiat, How are you getting so much boost out of your set up? I got 12 lbs this last weekend at 10% over.
17 lbs Saturday with the 6/71 4 under at 6500 ft corrected. I believe you ran at Eagle Lake and that is higher elevation than I was. That affects boost somewhat.
Turn it about 8500 and then read the boost gauge. :D

[Fiat48]

Originally posted by Kurtis500
ABSOLUTELY leave the MSD off! I ran 6 and 7 ignition with good batteries and never got a good solid pass with a blown injected alcohol motor at 18% over. Even with a mild cam. Too much fuel and boost in the cylinder and the spark was blowing out. I put a Supermag 4 on and first pass was on a fat tune-up and less than a .10 off my best ever. Even started better and idled smoother. You got alot more fuel in the cylinder with alcohol and even harder to light with boost. Flat tappet is fine, forged is best for pistons and crank. Lose the MSD and get a mag. I tried everything but a 16 volt battery to make it work, and it just wouldn't. Gas maybe, but not blown alcohol.
I've heard this before and I think the reason is the MSD's short spark duration compared to the Super Mag more than anything.
In the days when the Super Mag II was the hot ticket, we used to fatten the motor .010 for the first few runs with a new charged up mag. Then it seemed the fresh charge of the mag would settle down and we would be back leaning it some.

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by LakesOnly
87% nitromethane. 7% overdriven, I think.
Stroke was 4.125" and was a standard BBF crank offset ground and nitrided. The key factors in making his engines live are overkill oil system mods and never over 6500 rpm.
The problem with his set-up was he kept breaking transmission input shafts over and over, no mater what brand shaft he used. One time, the input shaft broke and the tach recorded 10,000 rpm. BBF crank stayed together (indeed, there was minimal load for that brief moment...) NO GARANTEES!:D
I am looking for a Forged BBF truck crank...for different reasons...
And yes, he wants to build the methanol system for me...I'm not 100% decided.
LO
Cool, if he wants to build two of them I am game.

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by Fiat48
I've heard this before and I think the reason is the MSD's short spark duration compared to the Super Mag more than anything.
In the days when the Super Mag II was the hot ticket, we used to fatten the motor .010 for the first few runs with a new charged up mag. Then it seemed the fresh charge of the mag would settle down and we would be back leaning it some.
Charged up mag?? what does that mean?? What about a stock system?

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Blown 472
Cool, if he wants to build two of them I am game.
Only has enough spare (n/a) injectors etc. for one sponsorship...I can inquire about a deal for you if you wish.
Another thought on that blown alcohol deal with a stock crank: I think the aluminum rods will be a must...
LO

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Fiat48
I sent it to you. The pictures are not the greatest but adequate. These are the plugs from 4 runs in the boat.
I like it! Thanks for the primer (no pun intended).
LO

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by LakesOnly
Only has enough spare (n/a) injectors etc. for one sponsorship...I can inquire about a deal for you if you wish.
Another thought on that blown alcohol deal with a stock crank: I think the aluminum rods will be a must...
LO
Hey lakes can you email me the plug pm, I cant see the pics for some reason.
I am thinking that too, not as spendy as a set of crowers and stronger than that chineese junk, and if I shed one easier on the block.

[LakesOnly]

Mailed you Fiat's PM

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by LakesOnly
Mailed you Fiat's PM
Thank you sir, what is your buddy wif tha nitro deal using for an ignition?

[Fiat48]

Blown 472: Mags need the magnets recharged about every year or so. Least the Mallorys do.
LakesOnly: I have got a 509 out there with 25 runs on Blown alky with steel rods and bearings look great. I'm NEARLY convinced that in mild blown alcohol and with a tune up that doesn't hammer the bearings that one could use steel rods.

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by Fiat48
Blown 472: Mags need the magnets recharged about every year or so. Least the Mallorys do.
LakesOnly: I have got a 509 out there with 25 runs on Blown alky with steel rods and bearings look great. I'm NEARLY convinced that in mild blown alcohol and with a tune up that doesn't hammer the bearings that one could use steel rods.
Ok, what is a tune up that doesn't hammer the bearings?

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Fiat48
I have got a 509 out there with 25 runs on Blown alky with steel rods and bearings look great. I'm NEARLY convinced that in mild blown alcohol and with a tune up that doesn't hammer the bearings that one could use steel rods.
Well, this is great news to me. I was intending to run steel rods; when steered toward alcohol, I maintained that I wanted to run to 8000 rpm and was subsequently advised to turn to aluminum rods specifically to save the crankshaft...but I'm acquaainted with a truck puller that holds 8000rpm for typically 17-18 seconds at a time, so why couldn't I make passes half as long?
Thanks for the reassurance.
LO

[Fiat48]

Ha! There is no such universal tune up. But I can get you close on the fat side and you tune from there.
Tune up's on Kill...like 36 or more timing, "leaning her .010" and getting near 3 threads of heat on the plug is generally "Hammertime."

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by Fiat48
Ha! There is no such universal tune up. But I can get you close on the fat side and you tune from there.
Tune up's on Kill...like 36 or more timing, "leaning her .010" and getting near 3 threads of heat on the plug is generally "Hammertime."
meaning lean? alky does not detonate does it?

[Fiat48]

Oh yes it does. Sinks pistons, seizes ring lands, stretches valves, knocks valve seats out of round and all the while hauls ass to where you think it was your best pass. Sneaky. :D
Just run it a little fat and a little laid back and that's good enough.

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by Fiat48
Oh yes it does. Sinks pistons, seizes ring lands, stretches valves, knocks valve seats out of round and all the while hauls ass to where you think it was your best pass. Sneaky. :D
Just run it a little fat and a little laid back and that's good enough.
Cool, I am not looking to set the world on fire with this motor just looking for an 850 to 900 hp motor, you think that is do able?

[Fiat48]

Yes. You will never go back to gas.

[Kindsvater Flat]

Originally posted by Fiat48
.....ran at Eagle Lake ...... :D
Tree huggers must have been away. Suprised you got away with that one.

[Fiat48]

BAH468 knows where the Sheriff is at all time up there. :D

[Blown 472]

If alky detonates how can you get away with running a high static comp ratio and then boosting it on top of that?

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Fiat48
You will never go back to gas.
That's what Van said to me...in so many words. Actually more like, "Just let me build you the alcohol system...from then on, I swear you'll throw rocks at (gas) carburetors."
:D
LO

[Fiat48]

Alky burns slow. That is your saviour. Alky has less BTU than gas. I don't know the limits...just my limits. I run 12.5 static and have run 24 lbs of boost and gotten away with it. Only one I hurt was with a new 8/71 fresh blower real tight for alcohol in which the blower got a little ahead of the fuel curve. Result was in 1 pass (car) I hammered every rod bearing in the motor and ruined 4 new BME rods. Every bearing was .002 wider...spread them pretty bad. 4 pistons seized the second ring. My .100 long valves were now .150 long.
But: The whole pass I am thinking "Damn, this is a good blower!"

[Blown 472]

How does it stretch valves?

[Fiat48]

Heat. Tulip's the exhaust valves. Comes with the territory. Just follow the plug readings and you'll be fine. Plug will tell you what you need to know. Valve lash will verify if valve is tuliping.
A lot of guys think alcohol is difficult and hard to tune. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's gas that is hard to tune. Alcohol is simple and easy. Personally I don't see why a guy would put up with gas for anything for performance outside of it's availabilty if allowed in the class you are racing. At least 15% more power and the engine runs cooler with alcohol, plus easier tuning and with fuel additives available it can stay in the fuel tank and fuel system without flushing it out all the time.

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by Fiat48
Heat. Tulip's the exhaust valves. Comes with the territory. Just follow the plug readings and you'll be fine. Plug will tell you what you need to know. Valve lash will verify if valve is tuliping.
Interesting, any type of valve I should be using?
What about lead aditive for the seats?

[Fiat48]

Manley Severe Duty stainless Intake/Exhaust or Inconnel Exhaust valves. Don't cheat on valves. Ferria good also.
Pro Blend alcohol lube additive. 1 can mixes to 55 gallons alky. About $20 a can. Use nothing else.

[Dave C]

Damn Fiat48,
you almost got me convinced to go alcohol and I don't even own a race boat/car anymore........;) :D

[Morg]

I'm telling you guy's
If your on the fence about alky, Fiat will have you running a cold fire faster than you can say, I'm gonna need a bigger fuel tank.
I stopped by to say hi a couple of weeks ago & he started pulling blowers, hats & fuel pumps off the shelf. "Why don't you bring your deal by here & we can step her up a little"
Some day.
The more I learn about alky the more sense it makes.

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Blown 472
what is your buddy wif tha nitro deal using for an ignition?
Stock Ford Duraspark recurved ditributor. Advance mechanism is modified in a very clever manner to be externally adustable and then locked down. I'll get you details. :)
With all the stock longblock components, I think he was in the 7's. Using his own special-made billet hemi heads, he broke into the 6's, was also later working with TFS aluminum heads (before Summit owned them and they were still in a barn in Indiana), Mallory ignition, this 'n' that, etc. I admit I parade around exploiting what he did with the stock stuff; that's because he was working with BBF's since 1970 or so and therefore had to come up with his own hi-perf parts...and essentially proved the potential of the stock components.
LO