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Well....I am still fighting putting the iron motor together.
Now I only have .002 across the rod caps and .0015 up and down.
I measured the rod bore at 2.4995 at 45 deg and 2.500 up and down.
The crank is dead nuts standard/standard at 2.3750.
The bearing shells measure .0615-.0624.
If the crank and rods are standard, I guess that means the bearings are overcoated. WTF? What else could be wrong?
Will I ever get to boat again?
Brian
Clevite 77 bearings, stock rods, stock crank.
Got to be the bearings right?
you may have to mix and match bearing sets to get the clearance you are looking for.
like different top and bottom halves with different clearances. make sense?
you may have to mix and match bearing sets to get the clearance you are looking for.
like different top and bottom halves with different clearances. make sense?
Crystal clear,
Unfortunately the bearings are all the same.
they come in different sizes...
Good luck with a phone contact for Dana, Clevite, Mahle or anyone else who may have bought the company.
I think I am just going to go sell all my shit and stick with crotch rockets. So much less of a pain in the ass.
Add an X to the end of the part number of the mains or rods for an extra .001" of clearance.
Add an X to the end of the part number of the mains or rods for an extra .001" of clearance.
I was able to get a tech number for Clevite from Summit.
I did find out about the X number, but that will only give me .0014 clearance.
Subract the bearing shells from the rod diameter, subtract the crank, the number left is pretty small.
Am I being too smart for my own good? The dork from Summit told me to put it together with Plastiguage and call it good. "It is more accurate that way."
I'm thinking at the point I need to have the rods resized.
Clevite tech just called.....I'll be back.
Brian
I am just going to buy the x part number and see where that gets me.
Break
Out
Another
Thousand
right?
Anyone need a set of standard HP bearings for a 440?
Brian
I was able to get a tech number for Clevite from Summit.
I did find out about the X number, but that will only give me .0014 clearance.
Subract the bearing shells from the rod diameter, subtract the crank, the number left is pretty small.
Am I being too smart for my own good? The dork from Summit told me to put it together with Plastiguage and call it good. "It is more accurate that way."
I'm thinking at the point I need to have the rods resized.
Clevite tech just called.....I'll be back.
Brian
If you are getting your measurement by "doing the math", install the bearings, torque the bolts, and use a mic and dial bore gauge to find out the true clearance. It will be different than measureing shell thickness, etc.....
If you are getting your measurement by "doing the math", install the bearings, torque the bolts, and use a mic and dial bore gauge to find out the true clearance. It will be different than measureing shell thickness, etc.....
Well that is how it started out.
I already did that.
.0005 up and down. Not near enough.
I know it CAN be different, but it can never be more clearance, right? Doing the math is the maximum the clearance can ever be.
I have never had this problem in the past so I am trying to sort it out before I kick a rod out. Not good.
Brian
hey What torque wrench are you using ?- get a bigger bar :D
hey What torque wrench are you using ?- get a bigger bar :D
Haha, looks like if I use that method I don't need to tighten them as much.
I bought a nice Snap-On torque wrench a couple months ago.
Brian
Federal Mogul competition brg P/N 8-7135CH-1 (+.001)
If the crank, bearings, and rods are standard, that's a pretty typical OEM clearance (.0015-.0002) You might want the rods honed to the max of the tolerance, maybe pick up a few tenths. The fed mogul brgs usually run about .0005 big, so the +.001 shoud get you another thou an-a-haf.
Federal Mogul competition brg P/N 8-7135CH-1 (+.001)
If the crank, bearings, and rods are standard, that's a pretty typical OEM clearance (.0015-.0002)
didn't you mean (.0015-.002) and yeah, I have seen numbers like that more than once and they worked fine, if your not spinin a ton, can't recommend 50 wieght oil though
didn't you mean (.0015-.002) and yeah, I have seen numbers like that more than once and they worked fine, if your not spinin a ton, can't recommend 50 wieght oil thoughYeah, of course I meant .002. I'd never recommend 50 wt anyway.
I bought the +.001 bearings. We will see where that gets me I guess.
Brian
All these xperts! The rods and mains will allways read larger across the parting line than top to bottom! This is because performance bearings are "delta wall", they are thinner at the parting line than at the middle. So if there is any mismatch due to improper, or lack of machining, the thinner edge of the bearing wouldn't tend to scrape the oil film from the crank. Measure the clearance perpendicular to the parting line(90 deg).Clevite and FM have catalogues, this info plus much more, is in there. It is our experience that aftermarket cranks run larger than factory units, this makes the clearances tighter. We use and stock HX bearings(.001 extra clearance), and also can polish a crank to add to the clearance, this is normal activity for engine builders.We set up a 10ths indicating dial bore gauge to the crank journal size to directly read the clearances. Not to be a smart-a**, but this is one reason you should let someone qualified check and assemble your engine. Also never hone the rods or main bores to adjust clearances, the fact that the bore is smaller than the bearing shell is what allows heat transfer from the bearing, and it is also what keeps the bearing from spinning in the bore, its called crush. We allways machine everything to the tighter end of the tolerance limit to enhance the crush. Buy the correct bearings, or remachine the crank. TIMINATOR
I've always measured all of the barring surfaces(in place and torqued), then had the crank ground to give the proper clearance for those numbers, not what it says in the book... but I'm not a engine builder...
Did you even read my post?
Just curious.
Not to be a smart ass...but reading your post seems like you replied in the wrong thread.
All these xperts! The rods and mains will allways read larger across the parting line than top to bottom! This is because performance bearings are "delta wall", they are thinner at the parting line than at the middle. So if there is any mismatch due to improper, or lack of machining, the thinner edge of the bearing wouldn't tend to scrape the oil film from the crank. Measure the clearance perpendicular to the parting line(90 deg).Clevite and FM have catalogues, this info plus much more, is in there. It is our experience that aftermarket cranks run larger than factory units, this makes the clearances tighter. We use and stock HX bearings(.001 extra clearance), and also can polish a crank to add to the clearance, this is normal activity for engine builders.We set up a 10ths indicating dial bore gauge to the crank journal size to directly read the clearances. Not to be a smart-a**, but this is one reason you should let someone qualified check and assemble your engine. Also never hone the rods or main bores to adjust clearances, the fact that the bore is smaller than the bearing shell is what allows heat transfer from the bearing, and it is also what keeps the bearing from spinning in the bore, its called crush. We allways machine everything to the tighter end of the tolerance limit to enhance the crush. Buy the correct bearings, or remachine the crank. TIMINATOR
Hey Brian, I may have missed this but did you get the "coated" bearings???...:confused:
Hey Brian, I may have missed this but did you get the "coated" bearings???...:confused:
No sir.
I checked with Clevite, I asked about the bearings I had being posibbly mispackaged or overplated bearings. The tech said the bearings would have a blue tint had they been coated.
The bearings measure exactly what Clevite says they should.
My crank is on the high side. Problem is it is standard/standard and my crank guy talked me out of turning it down at all because it was so nice.
I had it coolcased and polished and called it good.
Brian
I re-read your post and I just get irritated.
I am guessing you scanned through my post or didn't even read it at all.
Thanks for posting anyway.
All these xperts! The rods and mains will allways read larger across the parting line than top to bottom! This is because performance bearings are "delta wall", they are thinner at the parting line than at the middle. So if there is any mismatch due to improper, or lack of machining, the thinner edge of the bearing wouldn't tend to scrape the oil film from the crank. Measure the clearance perpendicular to the parting line(90 deg).Clevite and FM have catalogues, this info plus much more, is in there. It is our experience that aftermarket cranks run larger than factory units, this makes the clearances tighter. We use and stock HX bearings(.001 extra clearance), and also can polish a crank to add to the clearance, this is normal activity for engine builders.We set up a 10ths indicating dial bore gauge to the crank journal size to directly read the clearances. Not to be a smart-a**, but this is one reason you should let someone qualified check and assemble your engine. Also never hone the rods or main bores to adjust clearances, the fact that the bore is smaller than the bearing shell is what allows heat transfer from the bearing, and it is also what keeps the bearing from spinning in the bore, its called crush. We allways machine everything to the tighter end of the tolerance limit to enhance the crush. Buy the correct bearings, or remachine the crank. TIMINATOR
I re-read your post and I just get irritated.
I am guessing you scanned through my post or didn't even read it at all.
Thanks for posting anyway.
That is a typical Timinator post.. Irritated me too.
That is a typical Timinator post.. Irritated me too.
Ok, so you are saying I shouldn't worry about it much?
It gets kinda personal when you tell a machinist he needs to have someone qualifed measure his shiz.
:2purples: :2purples: :2purples:
Brian
It gets kinda personal when you tell a machinist he needs to have someone qualifed measure his shiz.
:2purples: :2purples: :2purples:
Brian
I think I'm qualified enough to measure my own "shiz" :D
All these xperts! The rods and mains will allways read larger across the parting line than top to bottom! This is because performance bearings are "delta wall", they are thinner at the parting line than at the middle. So if there is any mismatch due to improper, or lack of machining, the thinner edge of the bearing wouldn't tend to scrape the oil film from the crank. Measure the clearance perpendicular to the parting line(90 deg).Clevite and FM have catalogues, this info plus much more, is in there. It is our experience that aftermarket cranks run larger than factory units, this makes the clearances tighter. We use and stock HX bearings(.001 extra clearance), and also can polish a crank to add to the clearance, this is normal activity for engine builders.We set up a 10ths indicating dial bore gauge to the crank journal size to directly read the clearances. Not to be a smart-a**, but this is one reason you should let someone qualified check and assemble your engine. Also never hone the rods or main bores to adjust clearances, the fact that the bore is smaller than the bearing shell is what allows heat transfer from the bearing, and it is also what keeps the bearing from spinning in the bore, its called crush. We allways machine everything to the tighter end of the tolerance limit to enhance the crush. Buy the correct bearings, or remachine the crank. TIMINATOR
All these experts!!! LOL...so where do you fit in? I'd lke to see you polish a crank to remove material. That's a laugh, and if that's "normal activity" in your "expert" opinion, I'm sorry for the guys you do work for. My guess is a machinist like Brian knows more about tight tolerance measurements than you do. Engines have a few areas where there are considerably tight tolerances, but for the most part, it's +/- a fat brick, from a machinist's standpoint. It's been my experience that most engine builders (or I should say engine assemblers) really don't know much about "machining", and really only know enough to male themselves dangereous. The tolerances in bore dia's for rods and mains are there to allow for 1) errors, and 2) adjustments. The engineers and designers came up with those numbers so that even at the low side, the dia. will still provide the proper amount of interfearance, weather it be for bearing crush, press, or what have you. There's nothing wrong with shooting for the low side of a tolerance to get another few tenths, if that's what you need, and there's no benefit in "enhancing" the crush. Also, for quite some time, now, almost all babbitt bearings are thinner at the parting line, not just performance bearings. This was done to allow for the expansion of the end of the bearing becauase of the crush, not a mismatch possibility.
Next time you decide you're going to give a lecture, at least know WTF you're talking about.
So typical.
My guess is a machinist like Brian knows more about tight tolerance measurements than you do. Engines have a few areas where there are considerably tight tolerances, but for the most part, it's +/- a fat brick, from a machinist's standpoint.
LOL!! :D :D
I was able to get a tech number for Clevite from Summit.
I did find out about the X number, but that will only give me .0014 clearance.
this does't really make alot of sense to me, the X bearings are .001 more clearence, which would give you .0025-.003. Maybe I'am wrong.
this does't really make alot of sense to me, the X bearings are .001 more clearence, which would give you .0025-.003. Maybe I'am wrong.
Thats the problem, I am thinking I will end up at .0014
I don't know what I am going to do.
Brian
You got .0015 vertical now with a standard bearing. A 1X bearing should give you .001 additional...for a total of .0025. Or very close.
Clevite 77 bearings, stock rods, stock crank.
Got to be the bearings right?
Gotta what them Clevites...I needed some .10-10. and they sent me some .10.20 and some .10-.10.Was kinda wonderin' why the crank was tight...Hello
Gotta what them Clevites...I needed some .10-10. and they sent me some .10.20 and some .10-.10.Was kinda wonderin' why the crank was tight...Hello
Had the same thing happen this year,some .010 and some .020 in the same package
I thought the post said somthing about up and down clearance and parting line clearance. I won't bother quoting. Read your own post! You all can read. I don't believe that factory engine clearances (what the "book" says) are correct or desireable for a boat or performance engine either. I don't tell my customers they have to "break in a motor" (like the factory) because I was too lazy to set the clearances correctly. I won't even justify the comment that you can't polish a crank for clearance, its done all the time at engine builders. If WSU.... is a better machinist than us, why ask us? He DID ya know. TIMINATOR
machinist
Main Entry: ma·chin·ist
Pronunciation: \ma-shē-nist\
Function: noun
Date: circa 1706
1 a: a worker who fabricates, assembles, or repairs machinery b: a craftsman skilled in the use of machine tools c: one who operates a machine
2archaic : a person in charge of the mechanical aspects of a theatrical production
3: a warrant officer who supervises machinery and engine operation
I don't see a thing about knowing the ins and outs of bearing clearance problems.
Example: I did not know about the "X" bearing. News to me. Does that make me an engine building idiot? Maybe, maybe not.
This will be about the tenth engine I have put together and honestly this has been full of problems.
BTW...I do know when to ask for help rather than act like I know-it-all. Everyone can gain knowledge from someone else.
Brian
I thought the post said somthing about up and down clearance and parting line clearance. I won't bother quoting. Read your own post! You all can read. I don't believe that factory engine clearances (what the "book" says) are correct or desireable for a boat or performance engine either. I don't tell my customers they have to "break in a motor" (like the factory) because I was too lazy to set the clearances correctly. I won't even justify the comment that you can't polish a crank for clearance, its done all the time at engine builders. If WSU.... is a better machinist than us, why ask us? He DID ya know. TIMINATOR
It is not an act. It is my profession, (Mr.Know-it-all, that is). At no time did I call you an idiot. Doing only 40-50 performance engines per year and owning about a half a mil+ of equipment does not qualify me to offer aid. I won't. Good luck. TIMINATOR
Your type of aid was abrasive and downright insulting.
I can't imagine asking you for help ever again. You may look into a different approach in the future.
I recieved a couple PM's informing me of your style of "help".
Honestly I would rather kick a rod out than call on you for a thing.
Thanks.
Brian
It is not an act. It is my profession, (Mr.Know-it-all, that is). At no time did I call you an idiot. Doing only 40-50 performance engines per year and owning about a half a mil+ of equipment does not qualify me to offer aid. I won't. Good luck. TIMINATOR
Had the same thing happen this year,some .010 and some .020 in the same package
Wow, things must have changed at Clevite ain't never had that happen, been using them for 30yrs!..:confused:
All these experts!!! LOL...so where do you fit in? I'd lke to see you polish a crank to remove material. That's a laugh, and if that's "normal activity" in your "expert" opinion, I'm sorry for the guys you do work for. My guess is a machinist like Brian knows more about tight tolerance measurements than you do. Engines have a few areas where there are considerably tight tolerances, but for the most part, it's +/- a fat brick, from a machinist's standpoint. It's been my experience that most engine builders (or I should say engine assemblers) really don't know much about "machining", and really only know enough to male themselves dangereous. The tolerances in bore dia's for rods and mains are there to allow for 1) errors, and 2) adjustments. The engineers and designers came up with those numbers so that even at the low side, the dia. will still provide the proper amount of interfearance, weather it be for bearing crush, press, or what have you. There's nothing wrong with shooting for the low side of a tolerance to get another few tenths, if that's what you need, and there's no benefit in "enhancing" the crush. Also, for quite some time, now, almost all babbitt bearings are thinner at the parting line, not just performance bearings. This was done to allow for the expansion of the end of the bearing becauase of the crush, not a mismatch possibility.
Next time you decide you're going to give a lecture, at least know WTF you're talking about.
So typical.
If you read Smokie Yunicks book he says a tigher crush will transfer more heat away from the bearing and into the block or rod. Also the bearings are wider at the parting line to form the wedge of oil so there is no contact of metal on metal. Me thinks ol smokie might know a wee bit more then you.
If you read Smokie Yunicks book he says a tigher crush will transfer more heat away from the bearing and into the block or rod. Also the bearings are wider at the parting line to form the wedge of oil so there is no contact of metal on metal. Me thinks ol smokie might know a wee bit more then you.Me thinks you don't know WTF you're talking about, and oughta go back to wasting your time in Political Crap, where it really dosen't matter that you don't know WTF you're talking about. Aside from quoting Smokey, you think you want to go one-on-one with me on engine building?
Step off, junior. an get the f ock out.