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I am building a new 19' Ultra Shadwow with something in the area of 900-1000 hp. My question is what type of impeller should it have? It has a Berk. with a loader and a b impeller. The impeller they have put in it is an aluminum impeller. How much HP and rpm will it handle? And what is a brand new never been run B impeller worth? Or how much would a stainless cost? Thanks you for the help!
Andy
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You should call Wes at Ultra and ask him. He just built a 900-1000 hp pickelfork recently and went down that same road... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
J/K Andy. I would go with a detailed Berk "A" impeller for starters. See how it runs, and start playing with other stuff down the road. A used "B" cut aluminum will cost around $100-$200 depending on the quality and style of the cut, as well as the condition of the impeller. A stainless impeller is the deal, as far as out of the box performance goes. They run around $800 and are a bolt on improvement to a stock impeller, but comparable to a well detailed stocker. Cutting them is a bitch though.
If you want, I am doing a comparison test between A's and B's in OTR. I will swap you my A for your B if you want. That will help me with my testing. Save me from cutting the "A" and help you out. I plan on staying with the "A", but I am going to try a "B" just to quiet some theories running around about a mph increase by cutting the impeller.
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I asked jack at MPD about stainless. He said, only if you are around 600hp and up will it benefit. Looks like you meet that criteria.
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Racingrascal,Have you had your engine dyno'd to see where the power band is? This can help you determne what impeller size you want.I would go with the stainless and have one of the shops balance it.you may want to experiment with a couple different sizes and see how each performs.Keep us posted on your progress.DEL51
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what rpm are you planning on turning ?on my new boat im gonna run a ss b because i need to get up to 6500rpm plus to really use my motor,if your motor stops pulling after 5500-6000 rpm go with an a if more go with a b and go with a ss if you dont and it jumps out of the water while under power when it comes back in the alu imp will fold it cant hold the load
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Well considering if you are truely making 900-1000hp which the only way to tell is dyno it, then I would suggest that you use a stainless impellar for sure and depending on the rpm range you want the motor to run in would help you pick an impellar. I would consider a A.
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The reason I am not sure of the hp yet is they were dynoing the motor yesterday and I haven't heard the results yet. I do believe the motor is suppose to turn 6,800 rpm. But so fare it sounds like I am going to have to buy a ss impeller to get by. I didn't really want to spend the money on it right now, but from what you guys are saying it will brake right away. I will post the hp and rpm when I find out. Thanks again for the help.
Andy
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RR - that alum ain't gonna last too long and why be unhappy or broke down right outta the box with that bitchen ride. You need to get your components matched up or all you've done is just spent a bunch of money for nothing. I have a B ss sitting in my garage. Had Jack look at it when he rebuilt my pump last month and although its hurt he told me to save it cause it could be salvaged if I wanted to install in the future. Let me know if I can help here. Froggy, I'd like to be able to buy a new ss for $800, you must have a connection!
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With the power your running in that 540, I doubt you will need an impeller as small as a B. I bet your motor has the beans to turn it at the rpms the motor is rated to turn. However, you boat is light so a B would still probably work well. The trade off is running about 300 rpms more for a given speed versus rpm. I'd go with a A SS impeller and have it reworked and made lighter. At 18 pounds it takes a lot of power to turn it at higher rpms. Jack or Greg Shoemaker can probably do a good job reworking and detailing it. If you not happy with an A you could always turn it down to an A/B or a B.
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RR, you just couldn't listen to me last night huh? I'm telling you, SS is the only way to go with your setup. If you don't want to buy one, then you might as well start parting out your motor since you won't be needed items like your blower. Here bud, this is the one number to answer all of your questions.
949-631-2040 ask for Jack.
HBjet
F'ing Homo always looking for the cheapest deal. You skank!
Haha!
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Andy, I have a used B-SS Impeller I'll let you have cheap like, e-mail me if your interested?
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HBjet, I thought Terry was the homo.
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SS is the only way to go with that kind of HP. That alum impeller will come apart on you.
As to the impeller size, I would have one of the shops (MPD is a good choice) custom cut the impeller using the dyno sheet from your motor.
Eric
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Terry is the Homo. Hbjet I called Jack on my lunch break today. He said I have to go to a SS impeller or I may as well not even drive the boat with any kind of speed in mind or leaving the hole hard. It will just crack real fast and come apart. He also said that the B was wrong for the set I end up with, it was right up until the blower came in to play. I need to go to an A for the boat to work properly. $1,200 installed plus then he will give me credit for the brand new alum. B. BTW This is not Ultra Custom Boats fault, I am the jackass that changed my order 25 times, they set it up right for the first motor that was going in it. Then right before it's done I changed my mind and the pump was already built and in the boat.
Andy
[This message has been edited by racingrascal (edited November 16, 2001).]
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If someone is iterested in my brand new "B" impeller, you can call John West a Ultra Boats. 619-443-1100. He can sell it to you.
Andy
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Is that the price of the impeller reworked or stock out of the box? Does it also include a new wear ring or will your existing wear ring fit nice and tight?
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That is staight out of the box, I don't know it that includes a new wear ring or not.
Andy
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by HBjet:
[B]RR, you just couldn't listen to me last night huh? I'm telling you, SS is the only way to go with your setup. If you don't want to buy one, then you might as well start parting out your motor since you won't be needed items like your blower. Here bud, this is the one number to answer all of your questions.
949-631-2040 ask for Jack.
HBjet
F'ing Homo always looking for the cheapest deal. You skank!
I gotta ask ya HB,aside from donunts, do you get some kind of discount on the work you have done and the parts you buy?? All the free publicity really should get you somewhere you know. When i do a motor for someone and it's a referal, that guy gets a little extra of his next bill and that's a fact! One hand washes the other, you should remember that.
BTW, if RR wants to look for a deal what's wrong with that?? I ALWAYS look for a deal. Nothing wrong with that. Not everone has an extra $1200 or so for an SS impeller. Why not recommend bronze and he can save some money?? Why doesnt anyone think of that? Some friend you must be eh? They are half the money and are good to at least 1500hp. I still plan on running aluminum until i get my setup dialed in, (close to 700hp)then i'll run bronze. If the aluminum grenades(which is a given right?) i'll let you know. So far so good the past two seasons.
You people in southern cal should really open your eyes to the rest of the world we live in.
"the one and only number"
YOU ARE TOO MUCH DUDE!!
Chet
P.S. as blowndragboat would say...get the D$#^ out of you mouth.
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Originally posted by HBjet:
RR, you just couldn't listen to me last night huh? I'm telling you, SS is the only way to go with your setup. If you don't want to buy one, then you might as well start parting out your motor since you won't be needed items like your blower. Here bud, this is the one number to answer all of your questions.
949-631-2040 ask for Jack.
HBjet
F'ing Homo always looking for the cheapest deal. You skank!
Haha!
I second that definitely talk to jack at mpd took my impeller to him and it did what he said it would do.
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Originally posted by
I gotta ask ya HB,aside from donunts, do you get some kind of discount on the work you have done and the parts you buy?? All the free publicity really should get you somewhere you know. When i do a motor for someone and it's a referal, that guy gets a little extra of his next bill and that's a fact! One hand washes the other, you should remember that.
BTW, if RR wants to look for a deal what's wrong with that?? I ALWAYS look for a deal. Nothing wrong with that. Not everone has an extra $1200 or so for an SS impeller. Why not recommend bronze and he can save some money?? Why doesnt anyone think of that? Some friend you must be eh? They are half the money and are good to at least 1500hp. I still plan on running aluminum until i get my setup dialed in, (close to 700hp)then i'll run bronze. If the aluminum grenades(which is a given right?) i'll let you know. So far so good the past two seasons.
You people in southern cal should really open your eyes to the rest of the world we live in.
"the one and only number"
YOU ARE TOO MUCH DUDE!!
Chet
P.S. as blowndragboat would say...get the D$#^ out of you mouth.[/B]
HEY CHET!!!!! Until your name is behind some of the quickest jets and record holders like the people you keep talking down you should just shut the f*#k up! Having an opnion or making a suggestion is one thing but your just an obnoxious asshole. It doesn't matter what name you post under your stink just comes through. Why don't you take that D#*k out of your ass I think your about a quart over filled!
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Chet
I'm pretty sure MPD can get you a bronze imp. if you really want one. NO DONUTS FOR YOU!!!
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ghighway:
[B] HEY CHET!!!!! Until your name is behind some of the quickest jets and record holders like the people you keep talking down you should just shut the f*#k up! Having an opnion or making a suggestion is one thing but your just an obnoxious asshole. It doesn't matter what name you post under your stink just comes through. Why don't you take that D#*k out of your ass I think your about a quart over filled!
Ok ghighway,
I think i remember you the last time you confused me with someone else, namely mr. slowboat. Sorry pal, wrong dude, my name is chet incase you forgot, SO GET IT RIGHT OK PAL! I'm in the east and i think he's some where midwest...let me guess where you are, Southern CA maybe??? DOH!
As far as people that i talk down, cheerleaders like you maybe. As far as somebody IMPORTANT....hmmmm.... who might that be?? I'm a listin!
I just love premadonna's like you who come on here with nothing substantial to say but to be a cheerleader. Day in...Day out...over and over and over and over again. Are you hbjets brother or something?? Guess it's a crime here if i dont fit into the cheerleader mold..i like to know what's going on in my engine/pump combo so for the most part, i do it myself. That's why i look for INFORMATION on these boards like i've mentioned before. By the looks of things around here though...it's slim pickin AS USUAL.
As for me being an obnoxious a$$hole,better look in the mirror pal. What kind of boat are you running you said?? Again, i'm all ears. Maybe you have it tucked under the coffee machine??
Chet
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If someone has used a shop that has given them the service they expect and performance gains that met their goals, why would they not refer business? If it works and the shop is reputable and locally known for being one of the best, what's the problem? Why are you knocking a shop that is well regarded in So-Cal? That is what this board is all about, isn't it? No one is knocking the shop you use or you for what parts or assemblies you use. You obviously are happy right?
By the way, its nice to have you back Chet.
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Chet, you will not quit. You say you come here for information, to help you out, but when someone posts something that you don't agree with, they must be from Socal, and they must be a cheerleader, right?
I'll break this down for you guys, and if I'm wrong, please let me know.
up to 600hp, use an aluminum impeller
600 - 800hp, use a bronze impeller
800 and up, use a stainless steel impeller.
If's funny Chet how you came in here only to bash a few people, but you are really helping out another boater right? I see you offered your advice as well, but not without talking $hit.
Chet, you said there is nothing wrong with a deal, I totally agree, but when you are building a 900-1000hp motor, to put into a brand new boat, I would think you would want the best, and to do it right the first time. That's just my opinion. For the record, my pump was worked on just over a year ago. I have not had any other work done to it since then, and it still runs perfect. I don't get a kick-down from the plugs, I don't need to, I'm happy paying who ever I have work on the boat because I know I'm getting my moneys worth.
Chet, you said you are going to run an aluminum in your close to 700hp motor once you have it dialed in. Thats great! Lets us know how it turns out for you. Also, will you have dyno slips to prove the hp? You also said that a bronze impeller is good to at least 1500hp. DUDE! If you honestly think a bronze will hold up to 1500hp (because you did the research and field testing, oh, lets not forget the most important test that CRD does, that is set one by another on the floor, and stare at them for hours and hours) Anyway, if you think a bronze will hold up to "At Least" 1500hp, then why the HELL would anyone ever buy a stainless? Why is it jet boaters with 900hp+ motors are running stainless? Most boats you see are running an aluminum or stainless, because bronze is too heavy for lower then 600hp motors to turn, and isn't strong enough for 800hp+ motors to turn. But you know what, your right Chet. If you had a doller for every boat runing a stainless impeller in a motor 800hp-1500hp, you would be a rich man.
I have an idea for you Chet, this will not only make you the savior once again in the boating industry, but also rich. Here's the Drill. You find and meet every jet boater who is running a stainless with there 800-1500hp motor, use your charm to warm them over to listen to you and your money saving plan. You sell them the idea that you know is the truth, and works, and is proven. Once they are convinced that the shop who ever did there pump work screwed them over for money, and sold them an impeller that is mainly used for motors 1500hp and above, your going to help them out and sell them a bronze impeller, mark up the price 50 bucks, and your fifty bucks richer. Now, I know thats not a lot of money at the moment, but look at the big picture Chet. If you did this for every jet boater who is running a stainless when they could be running a bronze, you would never have to work a day in your life, and maybe, just maybe you could get your boat fixed, motor dialed in, and actually see how much you really know. Let me guess Chet, the cavatation reducer is only good with motors that produce 2000hp and more, right? Us west coasters are doing it all wrong. Funny how a west coast pump boat not blown, and no nitrous was the #1 qualifier in a 6 sec class against blown jets and hydros back east. Must be the donut power....Keep up the good work Chet, maybe someday you can get your own sitcom so we all could watch and laugh together.
HBjet
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited November 17, 2001).]
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Racingrascal.
I now have some amplifying information.
A) No question as to whether you need to run a stainless or not. You stand to do damage to your pump and housing. Bronze will mushroom like it it's job with your horsepower. Aluminum doesn't stand a chance.
B) It is not the power handling capabilities of the impeller that are truly in question. It is the load of "Airing out" the pump and then re-loading it immediately. In a boat like mine, it is unlikely, but in a boat like yours it is all but pre-determined. Once you skip the boat and tach out, you will forcefully load it upon re-entry and trash the impeller.
C) Based on the preliminary dyno figures of your motor (810 ft lbs at 5600, 945 hp at 6800) you will be better off with an "A" impeller.
Concensus around the campfire, and two conference calls... "A" stainless Berkeley.
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First off Froggy, I already know I am putting an "A" impeller in it. Your boss told me that is what I need. Did you really make two phone calls, come on? Those dyno numbers are not even mine, those are some numbers that Froggy got off of some sheet of paper from BRE. When they do dyno my motor I will be the first one to let everybody know what the real numbers are. Berkley impellers from what I have been told are not the best in the industry out of the box. I have been told that Legends are the best out of the box. Froggy I know you think that Berkley is the best becuase that is what you have, but it isn't from what I have been told. I thank everybody for their help with this, here is a good reason of why I am on here to learn and get questions answered. Thanks again for the help guys.
Andy
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WOWEE! Man..i got a whole lotta reading to do here boy...whew!HBJET, i missed ya bud!
hey rivercrazy,
Thanks, it's good to be back(i think). BTW, where in my posts am i knocking a SoCal shop??? When have i ever?? Nowhere i can see...now knocking cheerleaders...SIR I AM GUILTY AS CHARGED!
HBJET,
wow my friend..you can write let me tell ya...i really dont know where to start...i'll have to get back to ya on this for sure. One thing though...where does it say a bronze impeller is only good to 800hp??? You better tell the folks at brand X they dont know what they are talking about then! I have run my aluminum brand X impeller with my 522 chev for 2 seasons now without even a pit or scratch. FACT! That's right out of the box. As far as close to 700hp..i'm going to dyno it in the next few months but you can do the math ok...522chev with dart 320's, 10:1, 680lift:272dur@50 roller with flowed HP950cfm carb making it's best power at 6 to 6400rpms. I'm listening? Boat bottoms are a real B!T$H by the way, it's looking good though!
Hey racingrascal,
why not call a few more shops(not in CA) while your at it and get a REAL consensus(not just a SoCal one) a nationwide one...what do ya think?
Chet
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Chet I feel if John West (Owner of Ultra Boats) that builds a couple of hundered jet boats a year says I need a "a" SS then he must know what he is talking about and Jack at MPD (building full drag race pumps for 26 years) says I need a "a" ss then that would to me would be the two most knowledgeable people in the industry. You guys might like to run broze in the mid west or east coast but here on the west coast we like to go big and do it right the first time. You may have a farmer that is helping set your boat up, and that is great. But for me I am going with ss, at this stage of the game what's a couple of hundred bucks. I thought bronze was for baby shoes? Still wearing yours? Let us know what your 522 dynos, maybe we have something to learn here on the west coast......nah I dought it but let us know anyway.
Andy
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by racingrascal:
[B]Chet I feel if John West (Owner of Ultra Boats) that builds a couple of hundered jet boats a year says I need a "a" SS then he must know what he is talking about and Jack at MPD (building full drag race pumps for 26 years) says I need a "a" ss then that would to me would be the two most knowledgeable people in the industry. You guys might like to run broze in the mid west or east coast but here on the west coast we like to go big and do it right the first time. You may have a farmer that is helping set your boat up, and that is great. But for me I am going with ss, at this stage of the game what's a couple of hundred bucks. I thought bronze was for baby shoes? Still wearing yours? Let us know what your 522 dynos, maybe we have something to learn here on the west coast......nah I dought it but let us know anyway.
Hey RR,
Listen my friend, I love how you have to get sarcastic with me after i was just trying to offer you another suggestion by maybe looking into bronze. NOBODY else really seemed to did they? Did i get sarcastic with you? no.
Bronze is for baby shoes?? HAHA!(It's for farmers!) Are you for real?? Your the one crying about price so why bust my chops for offering a little help? If you have the money(which you obviously do) quit second guessin and reach in your pocket then and BUY IT!
Even your own called you a cheap skank. Why would you come on here if you talked to the "two most knowledgeable people in the industry"??? I dont get it? Seems to me you are questioning their logic...Even i dont do that. Dont say i do either!
Even someone on the other board mentioned they put 800hp to an aluminum and it held up pretty good for the most part..is he a farmer??? There was also another guy who i recall(quote me if i'm wrong here) with turbocharged 1000hp BB on the old message board running a mag bronze impeller in the low 6000rpm area. DID YOU KNOW THAT? DOH! What's was he thinkin? Ah must be a farmer...
Why not call farmer don pump or farmer hi-tech and ask them what they think about bronze?? They been at the game for 30 years...(2 most knowledgeble "farmers" in the industry) i bet you didnt know that either. I even saw dons BFG at a race about 10 years ago and guess what the impeller was?? (Could have been a SS with bronze speedcoat color i didnt think of that).
Anyways, I didnt get my shippment of corn off to the corner store yet so i cant afford the call. Enlighten me please if you do call and get some new INFORMATION from these "farmers".
Chet
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Way too much hostility in here. I thought these forums were for everyone to give advice and either take it or leave it. I in no way think I'm the guru of jets (I believe that to be Jack at MPD), but I do speak from expereince when I say that we mushroomed an Aggressor bronze impellar with about 1000hp doing a 130 mph pass. It tore up the pump pretty good. That is why I suggested to RR the stainless. His boat started out as an 85 to 90 mph 600hp setup and has evolved into something closer to (if not over) 1000hp, we don't know yet because we haven't seen the dyno sheets, they should've dynoed it on Friday. I think both Chet and HBjet are entitled to there opinion and people shouldn't get so worked up. As for cheerleaders Chet, I would have to say ( and you shouldn't be offended by this, but it's a fact) that you are the biggest cheerleader in here. There is nothing wrong with that, you're happy with aggressor and that's great, I'm sure they're not giving you anything for your posts, but you do it because you like the product. Just as I know Jack at MPD doesn't give anybody anything either, he just has an extremely happy following, one of which is me. I can easily say that I believe Jack to be the most knowledgable person on the planet when it comes to jets.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ULTRA28:
I can easily say that I believe Jack to be the most knowledgable person on the planet when it comes to jets.
We've been thru this before mr ultra28 so i'll spare you the rhetoric. I must say though sir that you are in fact being a little narrow minded and to be frank, a little nieve for a guy of your stature to say something like that with the likes of don's pump(inducer) and hitech perf (jetaway) out there in the jet community dont you think?? These are ingenious inventions to say the least. Have you ever worked/talked with them? Just my opinion, but a man of your stature is leaving something on the table if you say no.
I'm a cheerleader for a well rounded education to learn what there is to know about getting the most out of my boat.... not just "take it to one place and consider it done" over and over again. Aggressor has nothing to do with it really. I like them only because R&D is where it's at and they are the only ones really doing it. You of all people should know that staying at the cutting edge is the name of the game, right?
take care
Chet
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChetCapoli:
.... not just "take it to one place and consider it done" over and over again.
To take your boat to a shop and "consider it done" may be the easy way out, but at least you know you will be happy with the results. These guys are firm believers in Jack as I am with my shop. I trust my pump guy because he has "been there done that" with all boats and different manufacturers. What really made me a believer was the magic he performed on my pump, the work could be considered mild by the cost and parts you guys are talking, but the results were drastic. What, besides results, that keeps me coming back is a great attitude, lots of time spent with his customers, a great reputation and he is just as passionate about boats as I am. The exact same reasons Ultra28 has plenty of "cheerleaders." I don't get kick-downs to recommend his shop, I am just looking out for fellow hot-boaters who are looking for a great shop, most importantly great results. If I can point someone his way to be as satisfied as I have been, then call me a "cheerleader." He is as "cutting edge" as it gets and I will continue to trust his judgements with all of my future boats "over and over again."
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Well said John!
Now, we all know how Chet loves his Aggressor, and swears they are the best, in pretty much every setup. Well, I was looking through some older HB mags, and found the following question in the Jet Tech section. Can any of you guess who sent it in?
http://home.socal.rr.com/boatbutts/chet1.jpg
http://home.socal.rr.com/boatbutts/chet2.jpg
As I have even stated before (as well as many others) in other topics concerning what pump is better, it all depends on your setup, no one pump is superior to the rest. Now, Chet still argued, even though one of his jet guru favorites told him the very same thing most of us already did.
Quote: "It has been my experience that proper hardware selection, bottom design and a good, tight pump make all of these pumps look good in performance boating applications."
Now Chet, for your information, the cavitation reducer, this is nothing new, it isn't something that was invented at Don's Pump Service. They simply applied the concept to the jet design and it works. As it says on their website "A Revolutionary Advancement in Marine Jet Drives" Advancement, not Invention. Whats funny is you call it an inducer, and what is even funnier is that your right, just out of the box the cavitation reducer can "Induce" cavitation rather then reduce in certain applications. From what I've been told some modifications need to be made to it for it to actually work properly. Speaking of modifications, your amazing Aggressor products, you know, the ones that you like because of all the R&D they do, and as you said they are the only ones really doing it. Well, here is another quote from GS to you, which I guess you must of missed, so I'll type it out for you.
Quote: "Then along comes Aggressor, who comes up with nine-and 11-vein bowls. Its impeller cuts are more aggressive in terms of hook-up, but modifications have to be made to the hardware and impeller sizes for optimal speed to be achieved."
Looks like Aggressor needs to spend a little more time in the R&D department don't you think?
Well Chet, you crack me up! Thanks for the laughs, I've enjoyed them as much as everyone else...
HBjet
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Oh, the Hot Boat mag which features Chets Jet Tech question is June 1999. Ironically, there is an Ultra on the cover...
HBjet
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HBJet, you kill me bro... I'm dying to know how you dug that up!! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD
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RD, he's a serious TWEEKER. LOL
Hustler
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***boat Mag is Randys bible, and he studies his bible every night before he goes to bed like a good boy.
MissHBjet
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http://wsphotofews.excite.com/036/cL/qt/Q4/8Z13709.jpg
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited November 19, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited November 19, 2001).]