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So I have recently installed a 520" BBF Stroker in a 1979 21' hawaiian v-bottom with an open-bow. Berk JB-12 with an "A", loader grate and a hyd place diverter (no rudder).
Boat runs great, sounds great, and has no problem getting to low 70's with me & my pal Gary. Seems that when I trim it just right, I can get 78 mph @ 5200 rpm. I was aiming for 80 - 85, so I guess the NOS will come out next spring, as the season in Maryland is about over.
Funny though, a few times I lose control - the boat veers left, I turn right, boat still left, I trim down, let off throttle, and I get control back. After the first time, my buddy suggested a wedge, which I added (6 degree) - the problem is still there on rare occasion, seemingly without method or madness - but with the wedge I actually got REALLY nervous - the starboard side started to lift and I felt very helpless. Scared myself silly, actually - although I stayed out "testing" for another hour, running at speed with only one very minor repeat.
So, before I manage to destroy this boat with only 5 hours on the motor.... help?
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hmmm I am just about to buy the same boat as a project maybe I will re consider.
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hmmm I am just about to buy the same boat as a project maybe I will re consider.
:D Other than the few times it has violently turned left for no reason, I really like the boat - very stable.
check it out: (cameraman is only 10, video not great)
http://www.youtube.com/v/H_bfLlxBu1g&rel=1
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:D Other than the few times it has violently turned left for no reason, I really like the boat - very stable.
check it out: (cameraman is only 10, video not great)
http://www.youtube.com/v/H_bfLlxBu1g&rel=1
SOUNDS LIKE SHE WANTS TO BE A CIRCLE RACER!
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if you are losing control of the boat at wide open throttle when the roost is as high up as it is in the video, then that is the problem.
did you install the wedge so that the nozzle pointed higher up or down? wedging the nozzle up will only make it worse.
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I think I am going to hurl.
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if you are losing control of the boat at wide open throttle when the roost is as high up as it is in the video, then that is the problem.
did you install the wedge so that the nozzle pointed higher up or down? wedging the nozzle up will only make it worse.
I did it to point the nozzle up. The jerk left happens with tail up, but not necessarily all the way. If it hapens again (and I'm guessing it will) will I regain control if I flick the tail down lower? Obviously the wedge needs to come off (or point down) - but the million dollar question I have is
WHY
does it go to the left, and why so suddenly & violently? I want to understand the problem....:idea: :confused:
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You mave have hook in the hul:idea:
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I did identify some hook in the hull prior to installing the motor - but it is on both sides. I don't understand why that makes it go left - never right, just left.
The other thing (I forgot to mention) is that the intake is slightly dmaged - a small chunk missing on the right side - like an inch long by 1/2 in tall... I have a hard time believing this matters much, but I want all the advise I can get, so I'll share all the info I have
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lower the diverter to 4 feet off the water and see if it does it, your going slower with that big tail
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I know that, fastest with tail down, tail up still running ~63 - faster than anyone else out when I am. What I am looking for is a balance of being able to kick it in high gear as well as a safe "douse the WAFI" tail
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So I have recently installed a 520" BBF Stroker in a 1979 21' hawaiian v-bottom with an open-bow. Berk JB-12 with an "A", loader grate and a hyd place diverter (no rudder).
Boat runs great, sounds great, and has no problem getting to low 70's with me & my pal Gary. Seems that when I trim it just right, I can get 78 mph @ 5200 rpm. I was aiming for 80 - 85, so I guess the NOS will come out next spring, as the season in Maryland is about over.
Funny though, a few times I lose control - the boat veers left, I turn right, boat still left, I trim down, let off throttle, and I get control back. After the first time, my buddy suggested a wedge, which I added (6 degree) - the problem is still there on rare occasion, seemingly without method or madness - but with the wedge I actually got REALLY nervous - the starboard side started to lift and I felt very helpless. Scared myself silly, actually - although I stayed out "testing" for another hour, running at speed with only one very minor repeat.
So, before I manage to destroy this boat with only 5 hours on the motor.... help?
We built my dad one of those in '79. He had it til he died 20 years later and loved it. It'd run low to mid 70's, pull an A impeller about 5400-5500. Berk JG, no ride plate, no shoe, no droop and no wedge, just a diverter. Which by the way your's set way to high for that hull. You're pissin in the wind with that big a roost.
Dads had no hook in the bottom ever, but he set the intake and it sat on the trailer correct all those years so it wasn't a problem. Never pulled to the right or left, but he wasn't running as fast as you...and to be honest a Hawaiian (any Hawaiian) isn't meant to be run in the 80's. They were built as and should be treated as an entry level family boat, nothing more. They were built at warp speed in a production shop, hand laminated yes, but not in the same league as the better hulls from that era. That 'quality' can't be expected when you're making 9 boats a day and that's what we did at the peak.
You want to go 80+, get a better hull with a better bottom as a starting point. :)
By the way, the model of your boat is a 'Moonraker'.
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REALLY MAN, BE CAREFUL BEFORE YOU KILL YOURSELF OR SOMEONE YOU REALLY LOVE.:eek:
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REALLY MAN, BE CAREFUL BEFORE YOU KILL YOURSELF OR SOMEONE YOU REALLY LOVE.:eek:
I know someone who just killed their son in a simple accident, the grief and suffering is ..........!!!!!
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We would be curious to see the jet intake area and loader details (pics) if your inclined to post up pics ,also I should go back and reread but how much HP do you estimate and what did you do to get that boat to run that fast (78) ,thats scootin a$$ ?? Tom :D
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if you are losing control of the boat at wide open throttle when the roost is as high up as it is in the video, then that is the problem.
did you install the wedge so that the nozzle pointed higher up or down? wedging the nozzle up will only make it worse.
As Cyclone stated try the wedge down or a 2 or 4* down wedge. You roost won't be as high, but the contol might be better.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
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We would be curious to see the jet intake area and loader details (pics) if your inclined to post up pics ,also I should go back and reread but how much HP do you estimate and what did you do to get that boat to run that fast (78) ,thats scootin a$$ ?? Tom :D
I didn't state any guestimates on the power I'm making - and no easy dyno around here to find out. When I started in July with the vision of a "freshen up" of the 460 I had blown the head gaskets out of, things got a little out of hand, and now I have a pretty bad ass stroker motor. Build for driveability, not how much power, I asked for a pump-gas reliable 450-500 hp. For the relatively low budget (for a ford) and the neato-factor, I got the braggin rights around here about who has the most cubes, to my knowledge. Plus, my engine guy wanted to do a BBF stroker and I got lucky enough to benefit from his expertise, interest, and reduced labor rate. In my opinion, I got the best $3500 motor on the water. In my $1100 Hawaiian, I got a great boat, goes fast enough to beat my buddies, makes a nice noise, throws a flashy tail, and makes me happy to be an all-american redneck in a loud fast cheap boat guy.
I'll get some more pics tomorrow in the sunshine, had a buddy take these today but their not great. Sorry if I took your message wrong, but reading between the lines leads me to believe you're disputing my claims of power, speed, or whatever - no sense asking for advice from those who have it if I'm going to bullshit about what setup I have.
Thanks to all for the help - this is a great forum.
THRG
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Ok I will be the first to flat out say it....
BULL$h!t
Give me some of that stuff your on.
78 in a 21 barge with logs.:D :D :D :D
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Third pic tells you why she is unstable your intake fin is mangled.
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Longstr - could it be THAT critical, and why is it only causing an occasional problem? The fin is more damaged than I thought it to be, but it puzzles me that it wouldn't be a progressive problem as speed increased - it just comes on all of a sudden, but not every time. I assumed it couldn't be that crucial, give the uneven drag load on most all of out boats (like the speedo pitot, etc).
Thanks for your constructive comment.
THRG
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Ok I will be the first to flat out say it....
BULL$h!t
Give me some of that stuff your on.
78 in a 21 barge with logs.:D :D :D :D
Gee golly mister, you must be right. I bet that old barge doesn't even do 40 with those logs on it. Probably not even a real rooster tail - here I thought I could fool the world by running an electric pump with a vertical discharge. So, if you don't mind enlightening the rest of the world by sharing some of your wisdom, tell me...
WHY does the boat hook left?
(ps - the secret to my speed is that my boat is really a v-drive):D
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Could be your cavitating, and losing thrust on the pump from lack of bowl pressure? Don't see any hardware hanging down, other than the ski loader. Whats the face of your impeller looking like, the condition of it, may help determine whats happening, if it's the pump. And yes the damaged fin can cause grief at your target speeds.
My buddies got a 2oft Taylor BR, his wants to turn right, when he is alone in the boat, but when there is a passenger it's nice and straight. He does have an add-a-shoe installed, and that's most likely the cause, winter came too soon to do any more testing.
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http://www.***boat.com/forums/attach...=1194490331You mave have hook in the hul:idea:
The other thing (I forgot to mention) is that the intake is slightly dmaged - a small chunk missing on the right side - like an inch long by 1/2 in tall...
I like the missing chunks on the intake...at speed, especially as fast as your boat is going, little things make a big difference. The extra drag may only take over when you've got the right amount of gas, cross wind, etc.
Also, you've got most of the hull out of the water at that time. So, it is reasonable to make a simple intake repair and try it.
That thing really lets your know she's running...nice video.
CC
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Hotrod,
What tool are you using to measure your speed ? As others state, put the diverter down.
T.J.
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Anything sticking out of the bottom of the boat in the water causes drag. In your case you got one fin that water goes around it very smoothly, and another fin that it doesnt. Think if you flipped the boat upside down and put it in a wind tunnel how do you suppose the mangled fin would change wind compared to the straight one it would flow very smoothly over the straight one and not over the other, same concept in the water at high speeds.
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I didn't state any guestimates on the power I'm making - and no easy dyno around here to find out. When I started in July with the vision of a "freshen up" of the 460 I had blown the head gaskets out of, things got a little out of hand, and now I have a pretty bad ass stroker motor. Build for driveability, not how much power, I asked for a pump-gas reliable 450-500 hp. For the relatively low budget (for a ford) and the neato-factor, I got the braggin rights around here about who has the most cubes, to my knowledge. Plus, my engine guy wanted to do a BBF stroker and I got lucky enough to benefit from his expertise, interest, and reduced labor rate. In my opinion, I got the best $3500 motor on the water. In my $1100 Hawaiian, I got a great boat, goes fast enough to beat my buddies, makes a nice noise, throws a flashy tail, and makes me happy to be an all-american redneck in a loud fast cheap boat guy.
I'll get some more pics tomorrow in the sunshine, had a buddy take these today but their not great. Sorry if I took your message wrong, but reading between the lines leads me to believe you're disputing my claims of power, speed, or whatever - no sense asking for advice from those who have it if I'm going to bullshit about what setup I have.
Thanks to all for the help - this is a great forum.
THRG
Hot Rod Guy I think you may have read too much "between the lines" I ask for the pics and more info with the sole intention of trying to help sort out your potentialy dangerous and frustrating problem, not embarass you! Admittedly IMO your reported speed vs the rest of the setup sounds high as do your long range goals of 80 plus ,however in my experience but not impossible.HP vs boat size and weight shape etc is everything when it come to performance in these boats . Lots of folks with small light boats with moderate HP struggle to get 70 to 75 mph!
I belive this is a good forum and a great place to glean solid information and advise most all the folks here are willing to help . Good Luck Tom
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Hotrodguy,
Your 520" is putting out a hell of a lot more than 500HP if it can push that 21' to nearly 80 mph.
With that intake as jacked up as it is I can't believe that you couldn't figure out that it is the extra drag on the left hand side that makes the boat turn left. No shit it's going to turn left, that's the side you have the cutting brake on.:D
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
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Hotrodguy,
Your 520" is putting out a hell of a lot more than 500HP if it can push that 21' to nearly 80 mph.
I agree, but lets not for get that this is a very small and narrow 21 foot boat. It has no more freeboard than a 18 Southwind. It's not like he's getting that speed in a 20 Spectra or one of it's countless clones.
And, if I remember right, it's a 21 in name only...if it was even advertised as a 21. For some reason I'm thinking it was sold as a 20. Long time ago. :confused:
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Hot Rod Guy I think you may have read too much "between the lines" I ask for the pics and more info with the sole intention of trying to help sort out your potentialy dangerous and frustrating problem, not embarass you! Admittedly IMO your reported speed vs the rest of the setup sounds high as do your long range goals of 80 plus ,however in my experience but not impossible.HP vs boat size and weight shape etc is everything when it come to performance in these boats . Lots of folks with small light boats with moderate HP struggle to get 70 to 75 mph!
I belive this is a good forum and a great place to glean solid information and advise most all the folks here are willing to help . Good Luck Tom
I got a little more that 500 HP in my TX 19 and I am struggling to get out of the 70's havent got but a few hrs on the motor but that shows you that a light weight hull, new motor, new pump still gives greif to run 80+ :)
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Re reading this thread and observing the pic of the loader area it also appears (over and above the broken intake fin longstra mentioned ) that you have what looks like a "river racer" ramp loader grate (hard to see in the pic) if this is the case it (the loader itself) could be causing or aggravating the handling problems you express. The horizontal blades leading edges must be trimmed to the keel to make these work effectively and safely Tom
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I got a little more that 500 HP in my TX 19 and I am struggling to get out of the 70's havent got but a few hrs on the motor but that shows you that a light weight hull, new motor, new pump still gives greif to run 80+ :)
Just for comparison son Josh's 16' boat runs 79.9 with 500 + HP Tom
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WOW! Lots of great advice, and thanks for the couple of compliments! :)
1) How do I repair / replace the damaged intake?
2) Should I remove or replace the loader? What should I switch to?
3) I have used 3 things to check speed. The most accurate, in my opinion, was the radar gun used by a state trooper, although he shot me at 72 (I had 2 +me in the boat) and the pitot speedo read the same as best as my passenger could tell. The speedo is on the pass side console, all other guages are in front of me. We have used the TomTom GPS, which agreed with the in-dash speedo for the claim of 78 - that was me and a buddy, 8" chop on the river, and trimmed to perfection. So far I have not hit that again, but have no problem trimming to 75.
4) Thanks for the comment on the sound, it's even better from in the boat, hoping that the weather cooperates enough to run this weekend.
Thanks again, keep the advice coming!
-THRG aka Andrew
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http://www.***boat.com/forums/attach...1&d=1194557851
lots of bolts...I'm doubtful that you can remove the suction stuff with the engine in the boat. Maybe yours is different.
The intake grate mounting bolts holes should be drilled through so that you can put nuts on the bolts for extra security.
Good luck
CC
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The only true way to fix your intake is to pull the motor and jet remove the intake and fabup/heliarc a new fin (if even repairable) or relace the intake with new or good used 250 to 700 range. RE the loader ,put a long striaght edge on the bottom (keel) ahead of but extending into the intake are. then check the horizontal "scoop" blade,leading edges versus the top edge of same straight edge.Try to shoot a pic of this and post its up.Tom
BTW I've heard of folks "filling the bilge with Ice" to weld the intake in the boat " My OP this is in the catagory of "hey ya'll hold my beer and watch this", doesn't seem like a good idea to me ! :)
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I agree, but lets not for get that this is a very small and narrow 21 foot boat. It has no more freeboard than a 18 Southwind. It's not like he's getting that speed in a 20 Spectra or one of it's countless clones.
And, if I remember right, it's a 21 in name only...if it was even advertised as a 21. For some reason I'm thinking it was sold as a 20. Long time ago. :confused:
Thats the same hull as the Tahiti Super Cruiser right? I believe that the boat is running that fast. With some pump hardware tunning it should go even better.
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Being that damaged you could cut them both off and try Unchained's duct.
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Being that damaged you could cut them both off and try Unchained's duct.
Now you're thinking:D
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover
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Being that damaged you could cut them both off and try Unchained's duct.
That might work but nobody can answer any question. Does it cause lift? Does it make your boat go straight? and they wont even post any test results. So WTF what does it do other then cause drag? Or did they put some speed coat on it? :idea:
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I did it to point the nozzle up. The jerk left happens with tail up, but not necessarily all the way. If it hapens again (and I'm guessing it will) will I regain control if I flick the tail down lower? Obviously the wedge needs to come off (or point down) - but the million dollar question I have is
WHY
does it go to the left, and why so suddenly & violently? I want to understand the problem....:idea: :confused:
better check your loader, shoe and ride plate. it sounds like something may be lose under the boat. a lose loader will make a boat do some funny things, ask me how i know:D
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Being that damaged you could cut them both off and try Unchained's duct.
that is a good idea!
all ya gotta do is cut the other fin back to match the broken 1, then reshape them similar, its not that big a deal but 1 good fin and 1 bad fin will make it pull real hard.