What would I be better off going with for a 28 Conquest or magic deck boat?
1. Merlin 540 N/A putting out approx. 600 hp
2. Vortec 496 Mag Ho with a Whipple ?
Pro's/Con's
Printable View
What would I be better off going with for a 28 Conquest or magic deck boat?
1. Merlin 540 N/A putting out approx. 600 hp
2. Vortec 496 Mag Ho with a Whipple ?
Pro's/Con's
Oh yeah..
The 540 is carb'd and the 496 is Efi if that makes a difference.
The 540 would be my suggestion.
The 496 is not the best engine for forced induction (reliability)
The 540 can be modified to do what ever you want at a later date. Fuel injection, blower, etc., etc.
Of the 2, I would go for the 540 over a whippled 496.
What are you getting?
Getting? You mean boat....Either a Magic or Conquest Deck.
Originally posted by TheGreyGoose
Getting? You mean boat....Either a Magic or Conquest Deck.
Ya, thats what I meant. sorry.
No problem.
Originally posted by TheGreyGoose
No problem.
So which is it? Magic or Conquest???
The 540, my neighbor asked me to get a quote on a blower for his 496 while I was at PRI. I was told with 6 psi he would need a new set of pistons in 25 hours of use.
Chris
Not sure yet. I've really only spent time in the Conquest.
Originally posted by cstraub69
The 540, my neighbor asked me to get a quote on a blower for his 496 while I was at PRI. I was told with 6 psi he would need a new set of pistons in 25 hours of use.
Chris
Why after 25 hours and not 28 or 99 or even 200 hours? Is that assuming the user is on the juice for that entire 25 hours @ 6 psi? What if the user was only on the juice 25% of the time during the 25 hours? This does not seem realistic.
Please explain if possible.
Charlie, I would say he meant hard running. What has been done by the OEM's to combat emmmissions is to raise the top ring in the piston. . .this reduces the area where gasses build up. By doing this you get a cleaner burn. Down side is when boost is added the extra heat builds up and torches the thin area of aluminum at the top of the piston above the ring lands. Hence the new engines are not bost friendly.
I spoke with Vortec and a fellow from Warlock Marine. . .I have the business cards around here somewhere. The older motors would take it even with cast pistons, but these newones you need to beware.
Chris
OK so if you went with a 496 and added 6 psi boost and did a comp test and leak down prior to running for a baseline then continued to check you would probably know when something started going south, and might well exceed the estimate. On the other hand if this is a known problem would you want to even take that chance or just opt for the motor that would be boost friendly?
This sounds like a candidate for water injection, which would keep temperatures down since fuel dumping isnt an effective coolant.
What are your thoughts Chris?
Originally posted by gnarley
OK so if you went with a 496 and added 6 psi boost and did a comp test and leak down prior to running for a baseline then continued to check you would probably know when something started going south, and might well exceed the estimate. On the other hand if this is a known problem would you want to even take that chance or just opt for the motor that would be boost friendly?
This sounds like a candidate for water injection, which would keep temperatures down since fuel dumping isnt an effective coolant.
What are your thoughts Chris?
LMFAO
Not the water injection thing again:D :D
Thin area above the ring, thin block deck, thin cylinder head deck, all add up to "no like boost":eek:
I heard somewhere that a Magic will run pretty good with a Peto built 598 in it...
:D
From what I have gathered, this new Gen. BBC needs alot of aftermarket parts to make it HP friendly. If I was to "boost" this engine I would put pistons and rods in it.
Chris
Originally posted by Havasu47
LMFAO
Not the water injection thing again:D :D
Thin area above the ring, thin block deck, thin cylinder head deck, all add up to "no like boost":eek:
Actually I wouldn't do it myself if the 496 is not boost friendly. But my point was if someone really wanted to could this be an option for increasing the longevity in that situation?
Havasu47, you seem to be the only person I've heard dis'n WI. Maybe thats due to a failure of your own? You said you had used it extensively in the past. You said few pistons melted @ 6000 RPM under 15lbs boost due to a bad water pump? Maybe you didn't use quality parts for your WI like the good parts you used in the motor? Maybe you have an extremely biased opinion due to your own failure?
There are other things that could also cause you to lean out or detonate and blow holes in pistons the size of golf balls. The point is you had a failure.
You also previously said The cylinder temps with the 110 was in the 1300 deg range. With 91 and water injection they would climb over 1500 and would have to back off the throttle.
I would say that wasnt to bad considering you used 91 octane @ 15 lbs boost! Did you bother to take any measurements with the 110? I bet the temps would have been even less.
To many major auto manufactures have used WI and professional race teams like current World Rally Cars and in aviation for there not to be any credibility, ;) so why not in boats? Most people dont understand WI and would rather not be bothered by it, but if more did understand I bet more would try it.
Hell runin a fuel motor is being on the edge every run and if the tune up is off just slightly its going to melt down and you see those guys having parts failures here and there but they don't stop using something that worked because it failed, they try to fix the problem so it won't happen again.
Winners never quit and quiters never win
You gave up :rolleyes:
Only experience I have with water injection was on a turbo application. . . 140Lbs of boost. It was scarey....
Chris
Originally posted by gnarley
Actually I wouldn't do it myself if the 496 is not boost friendly. But my point was if someone really wanted to could this be an option for increasing the longevity in that situation?
Havasu47, you seem to be the only person I've heard dis'n WI. Maybe thats due to a failure of your own? You said you had used it extensively in the past. You said few pistons melted @ 6000 RPM under 15lbs boost due to a bad water pump? Maybe you didn't use quality parts for your WI like the good parts you used in the motor? Maybe you have an extremely biased opinion due to your own failure?
There are other things that could also cause you to lean out or detonate and blow holes in pistons the size of golf balls. The point is you had a failure.
You also previously said The cylinder temps with the 110 was in the 1300 deg range. With 91 and water injection they would climb over 1500 and would have to back off the throttle.
I would say that wasnt to bad considering you used 91 octane @ 15 lbs boost! Did you bother to take any measurements with the 110? I bet the temps would have been even less.
To many major auto manufactures have used WI and professional race teams like current World Rally Cars and in aviation for there not to be any credibility, ;) so why not in boats? Most people dont understand WI and would rather not be bothered by it, but if more did understand I bet more would try it.
Hell runin a fuel motor is being on the edge every run and if the tune up is off just slightly its going to melt down and you see those guys having parts failures here and there but they don't stop using something that worked because it failed, they try to fix the problem so it won't happen again.
Winners never quit and quiters never win
You gave up :rolleyes:
Charley, you, unlike Chris, myself and many other posters have no "hands on" experience with many of your opinions. You choose to take everyone who takes the time to help by answering questions in these forums and say stupid things like "you gave up". You have no idea of the extent of testing that I or anyone else you flame has done.
I have read many of your posts and every time someone answers with something you don't agree with you flame them.
Read my post, I was joking with you.
By the way, please enlighten us with all those auto manufacturers that have decided to use water injection on their production cars in 2004?
There are other things that could also cause you to lean out or detonate and blow holes in pistons the size of golf balls. The point is you had a failure.
That's correct, but in this instance it was a failure in the water injection pump.
You gave up
Yep, I gave up on water injection. As I said before, after much testing. You should try it sometime.
Winners never quit and quiters never win
That's original. Spoken like a true armchair quarterback. As far as winning goes. We do it, you read about it, then tell us how it should be done.
Hey, here's an idea, bring your "Blown Fourwinns" to the BBSP at Havasu, turn up the boost, add water injection, and kick everybody's ass. Then you can speak from experience.:rolleyes:
140 lbs of boost? HOLY SHITE. good god I thought 30 was alot.
WOW
fog
Does anyone even make aftermarket parts for the 496? Like heads, crank, cam, etc....? I didn't think anyone did yet. If that sitll stands, I would stay away from the 496 and go with the 540. If a year later your not happy, you already have a good foundation to build something more powerful.
HBjet
Yeah, it was a bit of boost. Scared me to death. It was a 6 cylinder Alis Chambers, diesel. I did the camshaft and designed a shaft rocker system for it. Never dynoed, but a good guess would put it a 3500HP.
HB, Cranks, rods and pistons are available aftermarket, but that is all I know of at this time. We do have to do a dry sump for it for someone, I can't remember who.
Chris
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Havasu47
Charley, you, unlike Chris, myself and many other posters have no "hands on" experience with many of your opinions. I ask questions and look for answers and have read a lot on the WI subject. I asked Chris a question and you responded in a personal sarcastic attack on me. There are many, many people on both sides of the WI fence and you have chosen yours and attack mine.
It just seems so curious though that with so many smart people building and maintaining their own high performance boats that more of them havent tried WI when it has been tried and used in so many other areas. And if I am making a comment or searching for an answer I dont appreciate personal attacks.
By the way, please enlighten us with all those auto manufacturers that have decided to use water injection on their production cars in 2004? Man are you cynical? The preferred method of cooling by manufactures is fuel dumping and EGR. I dont think that we can judge auto manufactures as providing the best equipment on cars sold to the general public and they will find the cheapest way to make something work. The point was that it has been used in the past by auto manufactures.
Because fuel dumping does work, they are able to avoid the additional complexity that water injection presents. For the average driver the system required is more complex to maintain for those who do not properly maintain their cars.
If it didnt work why would every World Rally Car factory sponsored team use it in competition?
Yep, I gave up on water injection. As I said before, after much testing. You should try it sometime. Its to bad you gave up, you might have found something that really worked. Think of all the innovators that didnt give up on an idea and kept trying after failure upon failure and finally succeeded. People who didnt give up after everyone told them they were crazy. People like the Wright brothers, Thomas Edison, Soichiro Honda, Jim Hall, Smokey Yunick, Ole Evinrude and Carl Kiekhaefer to name a few. They were all innovators who didnt give up on an idea and worked on it until it was perfected!
Winners never quit and quiters never win I think Tony Robbins says something like that and I heard it long before he did.
That's original. Spoken like a true armchair quarterback. Never heard it before? It was said a lot when I was involved in racing. Quarterback? You have no idea.
As far as winning goes. We do it, you read about it, then tell us how it should be done. Read about what? If your successful share your stories on how well your doing, its great to hear about other peoples success.
Hey, here's an idea, bring your "Blown Fourwinns" to the BBSP at Havasu, turn up the boost, add water injection, and kick everybody's ass. Then you can speak from experience.:rolleyes:
Now thats pretty funny and sarcastic
Lets keep this on topic and leave the quote wars for the sandbar or bench racers please. Who said what, who did what, etc etc etc does not belong in gear heads. There's a place for it. Gear heads is not the place. Thanks
Who let the varmits in?:mad: .....HOSS? Where in the hell is HOSS:D:D:D
Originally posted by Hotcrusader76
Who let the varmits in?:mad: .....HOSS? Where in the hell is HOSS:D:D:D
I don't think it's Hoss this time Ty. He's busy dryin his shorts out (http://www.***boat.com/forums/showth...threadid=40579)
Seems he tried water injection and it worked a little too good.
But it would be so easy to.......:D
Alright I'm sorry, I'll be good:yuk:
Can I have dessert now?:)