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Alright, a few problems have crept up on me this summer, but nothing serious. However, I have had a consistent "issue" with my motor ever since I got it in the Fall of 1996.
The motor is a 1990 2.4L Carburated Bridgeport. The motor is basically stock except 26cc heads (155 psi) and releived exhaust/G-Force Tuner. I am running 92 jets in the carbs and run it on a mix of race fuel and premium unleaded with Klotz KL-333 Synthetic mixed 32:1. The motor was completely rebuilt (new pistons, rods, everything) in 1996 which is when I bought it. However, a few pieces were pirated from my blown up 200 and bolted on to the Bridgeport. The starter, flywheel, alternator and mid section are the main pieces which are from a 1998 stock 200 and to my knowledge have not been rebuilt.
The problem. It is a royal pain in the A** to start when cold. I am not talking about it not kicking over the first time.......I am talking about 50 tries some times before I can get it to light.
Here is my starting process. Hold the throttle wide open to advance the timing, turn the key, let the fuel pump do its work, push the key in to prime it and then kick it over. I try this a time or two and if it doesn't light, I pop the cowl and squirt some starter fluid into the carbs. About half the time this works and it lights, the other half I get the same thing. After about 4-5 tries, there is gas all over the water, and I'm done. Nothing I do at this point will help. I think I am flooding it.
One of the areas I am thinking of looking at is the starter. Again, it is from a 1988 200 black max. When I hold the throttle down, the starter likes to pop the gear up and then right back down. It will not hold the gear on the fly wheel and spin the piss out of it for too long. It goes up and comes down pretty quick, no more than about 2-3 seconds. When I am not holding the throttle down, it will spin, spin, spin, but then the timing is not advanced so it won't light. The starter has never spun real quick, it is kind of a slow spin.....not abnormal I don't think, but I know the champ motors have starters on them that rev the piss out of the fly wheel.
Question: are all carburated high perf motors this tough to start? Could the starter be my problem, or is there something else I should look at. Is there an after market starter that would be better for my application than just rebuilding the stock 200 starter (ie: is there a gear reduction or similar starter out there that will rev the piss out of the flywheel)? Any other comments or opinions.
This is getting real old, real quick. :mad: Thanks.
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HD,
I'm not a outboard tech,but just a thought high octane fuel is harder to fire than pump gas.
Have you heard about the rumble on the river?
It's in Carrolton Ky.,right on the ohio river.
Aug 2,3,4 this yr it will be dedicated to outboards,but anyone can participate. I think we'll be there with the hydros.
There gonna keep it no wake for us to race.
Sat evening the city of carrolton is going to parade us thru town behind the fire truck and police cars.
There will be boats from as far away as Canada and Florida.
Should be a good turn out.
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Uh-oh,
you are starting to sound like me, I work on this thing more than the race cars. Between the two of us we certainly have some starting issues...
Hope you got some water time though, how was it? - we didn't even come close to getting wet this weekend.
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H/D.....I was doing the same thing with my 2.5 carb motor, flooding the crap out of it! (- the starting fluid) I was running stright avgas from the airport(which was kinda cool taking the boat to the airport)and Syngeryn oil at apx 40-1....anyway, I learned that if you are advancing the timing your spark curve will make better top end, BUTT will make a total bitch to start!!! with mine I couldnt touch the gas at all. give it a few seconds of primer before cranking, crank it (without pushing key in) for few sec's. mine at that point would usully pop over than stall. crank again and maybe give a little gas..works perfect for mine like clock work....good luck
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burbanite:
Uh-oh,
you are starting to sound like me, I work on this thing more than the race cars. Between the two of us we certainly have some starting issues...
Hope you got some water time though, how was it? - we didn't even come close to getting wet this weekend.Great weekend (for the most part). Salamonie is awesome. We had great water to run on, you would have loved it. I wound it out on both Saturday and Sunday in the 7,000 + RPM range. Got there Friday night about 9:00, no modern camping. :( All right, we are in primitive, lets make the best of it. Not bad camping, but it wasn't near the lake and there were only a few trees for shade so it was really hot, really early in the AM. Modern campground is much better, near the water, and near the public beach. We just have to get there early on Friday next time. Satuday morning....it won't start. Keep cranking. Gas all over the water.....Mike Cussing on the ramp. :mad: Pull it out. Check plugs, they are fine. Put it back in, and about 10 tries later it lights up. :D Rest of Saturday is fine. Sunday, fires up first time on the ramp. :p Bomb around for a while, then pull back in a cove at the far end of the lake and wait for my buddy to show. He shows, we float for a while then decide to head down to the other end of the lake for a change of pace. He takes off, I pull up the anchor and try to fire, won't start. Now this usually does not happen....only when it is cold does it give me trouble. This was new. Try to fire it no less than 30 times. Won't light! :mad: Even with the start fluid, won't light. Tracy tells me to give it 10 minutes. I do. Won't light. A nice guy swims over and starts manually working the butter flies as I keep cranking. It is a good thing I have a new optima battery. wink I try no less than 20 times with this guy helping me. Finally, and I me finally.........like 30 mins. later it lights and we are off. Get down to where my buddy is float around, drink to ease the tension and stress. About an hour later we decide to go out for a ride and it fires. WOOOHOOOO! :D Crusing down the lake towards the ramp (luckily) and run out of gas about 1/2 mile from the ramp. :( Get towed in, no big deal. The starting thing has me pissed though. Didn't get a chance to say "later" to my buddy, but wait......that is him ahead of us on the road. He must have pulled out as well (different ramp). Trying to catch him, but can't. Then all of a sudden he is on the side of the road.......did he see me and just want to say bye..........uh no........blown tire on a single axle trailer and he has no spare. Unhitched on the side of the road, went to get spare, and came back, changed it and made it home about the same time we did and he is less than half the distance we are. All in all a pretty good weekend, but if I can't figure this motor out, it is history and I am running out of patience.
Sorry to hear you didn't make it out. Next weekend we are out of town (not with the boat). Not sure what we are doing the first weekend in August. August 10th, we are back up at Salamonie!
Oh yeah..........did I mention that I dropped the anchor on my foot? Yeah, my second toe on my right foot is about the size of a golf ball. It feels GREAT!
[ July 22, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: HavasuDreamin' ]
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TOBTEK:
H/D.....I was doing the same thing with my 2.5 carb motor, flooding the crap out of it! (- the starting fluid) I was running stright avgas from the airport(which was kinda cool taking the boat to the airport)and Syngeryn oil at apx 40-1....anyway, I learned that if you are advancing the timing your spark curve will make better top end, BUTT will make a total bitch to start!!! with mine I couldnt touch the gas at all. give it a few seconds of primer before cranking, crank it (without pushing key in) for few sec's. mine at that point would usully pop over than stall. crank again and maybe give a little gas..works perfect for mine like clock work....good luckInteresting! Perhaps I will give this a try. Still there has to be a better way?????
I was told by the engine builder to hold about 1/4 throttle, prime and turn over. I couldn't get that to work. Then, one day while having problems on the ramp about two years ago, my buddy yelled over to me to hold the throttle all the way down, and it fired. I have been trying it this way ever since while. It worked well that day, I still have problems.
Can you explain to me why advancing the timing makes it difficult to start? How about your starter motor on your 2.5? Did it pull the gear down pretty quick? Thanks.
[ July 22, 2002, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: HavasuDreamin' ]
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Don't know much about the carb motors myself, but do they have accel pumps? I know some did and some didn't. If there is fuel on the water when trying to start, it's usually flooded, and holding the thottle on the floor will help. When you go WOT, you're letting in all the air it wants, but you only hit the accel pump one time. It will fire if you have spark.
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First of all dont hold the throttle wide open, only hold it to where the timing advances but not enough to open the carbs much you will notice a difference in tone from your previous starting method buut it should work
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Dear Havasu: Had that problem many years ago with a straight six, 100 HP. Mine had a recoil start so I got used to starting it manually when cold- easy with three pulls and everyone laughing at the skinny runt trying to spin this monster to life! Entire problem went away quite accidentally when I cleaned up the starter comutator during some deep service. The entire problem was a bad starter taking so much juice that there was nothing left for the ignition coils, when cold, anyway.I didn't even change brushes. You could try this possibility by overhauling the starter(easy, believe me!) or a trial start with the starter and ignition on separate batteries. Good luck- hope you can get the problem to go away!
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HavasuDreamin':
TOBTEK:
H/D.....I was doing the same thing with my 2.5 carb motor, flooding the crap out of it! (- the starting fluid) I was running stright avgas from the airport(which was kinda cool taking the boat to the airport)and Syngeryn oil at apx 40-1....anyway, I learned that if you are advancing the timing your spark curve will make better top end, BUTT will make a total bitch to start!!! with mine I couldnt touch the gas at all. give it a few seconds of primer before cranking, crank it (without pushing key in) for few sec's. mine at that point would usully pop over than stall. crank again and maybe give a little gas..works perfect for mine like clock work....good luckInteresting! Perhaps I will give this a try. Still there has to be a better way?????
I was told by the engine builder to hold about 1/4 throttle, prime and turn over. I couldn't get that to work. Then, one day while having problems on the ramp about two years ago, my buddy yelled over to me to hold the throttle all the way down, and it fired. I have been trying it this way ever since while. It worked well that day, I still have problems.
Can you explain to me why advancing the timing makes it difficult to start? How about your starter motor on your 2.5? Did it pull the gear down pretty quick? Thanks.H/D.......I would have done many things by this time....1. would have unbolted motor from boat and let sink to the bottom of lake Havasu, for a man-made fish reef/wild life preserve! 2. sold the motor for scrap metal, and used the money for a down on a new motor! 3.been in the shop foreman's face that said this thing is working fine....I dont know how your doing it bro, sounds very frustrating to me. Have you taken it to a good merc shop? if not, its time...
spark advance was explained to me as (btw, this is what I was told/ And im far from a expert!)when ever you advance/retard the timing, weather its a jetski or a M5 BMW..the more advanced the spark curve is you will gain more top end, but you will loose bottom and will be difficult to start. On your old race ski's we would have to start/warm motor with stock spart advance. Then after motor was hot, pull flywheel and advance the timing...big ole pain. but they were fast! one thought though, sounds like you are very flooded, you can always give more gas if it doesnt fire without gas first...once your flooded your screwed...
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TOBTEK
[/qb]H/D.......I would have done many things by this time....1. would have unbolted motor from boat and let sink to the bottom of lake Havasu, for a man-made fish reef/wild life preserve! 2. sold the motor for scrap metal, and used the money for a down on a new motor! 3.been in the shop foreman's face that said this thing is working fine....I dont know how your doing it bro, sounds very frustrating to me. Have you taken it to a good merc shop? if not, its time...
spark advance was explained to me as (btw, this is what I was told/ And im far from a expert!)when ever you advance/retard the timing, weather its a jetski or a M5 BMW..the more advanced the spark curve is you will gain more top end, but you will loose bottom and will be difficult to start. On your old race ski's we would have to start/warm motor with stock spart advance. Then after motor was hot, pull flywheel and advance the timing...big ole pain. but they were fast! one thought though, sounds like you are very flooded, you can always give more gas if it doesnt fire without gas first...once your flooded your screwed...[/QB][/QUOTE]
Thanks for the info. I am at the point where I am ready to drop it to the bottom of the lake. On the one hand, I hate to get rid of the motor.......it runs soooooo well once fired up. On the other, it has me stressed out all the time now when on the water because I am always afraid that at the end of the day when we are way off and far from the ramp, that it won't start and I will be sleeping on my 19' tunnel. Not comfortable. :(
I think what I am going to do is try to start it only giving say 1/5 throttle.....just enough to advance the timing slightly, but not enough to dump a sh*t load of gas in it an flood it. If this doesn't work, which I am guessing that it won't, I will limp it through the rest of the summer and then give the good ol' Seebold's a call in St. Louis and see if they can't work a little magic on it for me since I am only 5 hours away.
If they work some magic on it for me and it still gives me the shits next summer, there will be a clean 2.4L Bridgeport for sale and I will be going with a new 2.5L fuel injection motor. My question at that point will be do I go for the 2.5L 280 motor or do I go for the 2.5L 225 Pro Max motor. Anyone out there with a 280 that can tell me first hand how reliable these motors are in terms of starting EVERY TIME?
Thanks for the input Tobtek! :cool:
