Bush take two.

[AzDon]

If we strip all regulation away and let everybody slash-and-burn out of control, ALL the jobs that pay anything will have been deported or filled by low-cost newcomers. The fruits of all this low-cost labor will (naturally) expect full access to our consumer market, but there won't be anyone left here with enough income to buy these goods.
Ever hear of the Great Depression? It was the result of out-of-control industrialization that had no vision for building a society, just exploiting cheap help without control. When they were all done and there was nobody left standing to buy their stuff, they closed and went on vacation (if they were lucky enough to not have their money in banks) And left it to the government to figure out how to put people back to work and re-create the market for consumer goods.
If you don't like the society that was created by liberal thinkers in the aftermath of the depression, you should move to Mexico, where the government has never meddled in trying to create a society with spendable income....They actually now have a president whose answer to their problems is to "rent" their citizens out across our border as cheap laborers!
I have a question for the small business owners here..... When American business has finished reducing every single American to Burger King wages either directly, or through price competition, WHO ARE YOU GOING TO SELL YOUR GOODS OR SERVICES TO??

[steelcomp]

I don't care one way lib or conservative, except that the facts speak for themselves. Forty years of liberal policies, forty years of liberal majority in our government, forty years of nothing but failure. This country hasn't solved any of it's significant social or economic problems in any way. Welfare is a disaster. Our constitution is assaulted and ignored on a daily basis. Our schools have become portals for liberal indoctrination and what is called "education" today is absurd, and what is tought in our schools border lines on lib. propoganda. Political correctness is a smoke screen for non-accountability, and that's the lib. motto. No accountability. No responsibility, and absolutely no regard for or interest in the truth. I was not raised in a political family. I have just observed. I have listened. I have seen the results, and I just don't get it how what is so completely obvious, is so obscure to some...to many. I hear the issues and the arguements, and it never fails, that it'll be a lib that starts with the foul language, the personal insults, the derogatory comments, but never addressing the issues. This isn't a slam on libs, it's just an observation. It's what I've come to learn, and see, and if it offends someone, I hope that person looks around, and realizes with what and whom they are aligning themselves, and the direction they are heading. I think it's a good idea to step away from the tree, and take a look at the forest (fire). I am not interested in "politics", nor am I interested in partisanship. Those two things serve only one purpose, and that is to devide people, and turn them against eachother. I'm not going to debate on political "issues" because they are really not the "issues" that people need to be concerned with. There is a much bigger picture here, and we ALL are going to suffer in a much bigger way if the changes that need making don't come about soon. Fortunately, the tide seems to be turning. Those things that this country were founded on and which made us the great nation that we are, (for this nation is the people, not a place) are being destroyed one by one at an accelerated rate...the most important of which is our freedom...that inalianable right given to us by the God that created every man equal, and the belief in just that. It's ironic that the freedom that so many died for for us to live in, is the very right which is being exploited so harshly against those who believe in it, and it's origin and authority.
This is interesting. It's a little "broader" perspective of what you are all talking about, but the indications and direction whichwe are moving in are there. Please every one read this.
>At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution,
>in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at the
>University of Edinborough ) had this to say about "The Fall of The
>Athenian Republic" some 2,000
> years prior.
>
>
> "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot
> exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will
> continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that
> they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
> From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates
> who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
> result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose
>fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."
>
> "The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the
> beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200
> years, these nations always progressed through the following
>sequence:
> From Bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great
>courage;
> From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance
>too complacency;
> From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence;
> From dependence back into bondage."
> Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St.
>Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most
>recent Presidential election:
>Population of counties won by:
> Gore=127 million
> Bush=143 million
> Square miles of land won by:
> Gore= 580,000
> Bush=22,427,000
> States won by:
> Gore=19
> Bush=29
> Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
> Gore=13.2
> Bush= 2.1
> Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush
> won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this
>great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living
>in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare..."
>
>
>Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the "complacency and"
>apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy; with some 40
>percent of the nation's population already having reached the
>"governmental dependency" phase.
>
>
>
>Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at stake
>in this Election Year and that apathy is the greatest danger to our
>freedom.
> God Bless America!

[steelcomp]

If every employer was required to pay a livable minimum, the playing field would be level for all employers. I think you are making the assumption that businesses would somehow be prevented from passing those costs to the customer, but I never said that! A certain percentage of increase could be immediately expected from ALL businesses that were in segments previously serviced by subliving-wage employees. Any business that could not promote the percieved value of their product at the new pricing probably wouldn't make it!
That is so socialistic in it's thinking that it's scary. The whole idea of a minimum wage being somethjing someone can "live" on is rediculous. Where would be the incentive to move forward? Minimum wage jopbs are not meant to be professions...they are entry level, beginning, stepping stone places for people to get into the work force. Employers are already (and have been for years) crying because they can't afford those wages.
There is no equal playing field in a capitalistic or free enterprise system. To try and create that is one of those destructive ideas that is eating away at this country's greatness for it's people, and is definately part of the lib. agenda.

[mickeyfinn]

Haven't seen you post here before steel, Don't know if you used to post by another name or not but welcome anyway. Just so you know we can argue until you are blue in the face and we won't change the mind of some of the folks here pushing the liberal/social agenda. Trying to tell these people that having a great place to live and prosper is not as easy as voting themselves a raise is kinda like trying to convince all the poor ignorant people on the web that when they get the email from africa telling them that if they give up their banking information they will become instant millionaires is a scam. It's too good to be true but people fall for it everyday, just like the liberals/socialist continue to foster more and more votes. This country has approached the dependancy phase and people who are looking to push these agendas are really only looking towards the instant gratification and do not realize that they are dooming their children or grandchildren to cleaning up a very big mess.
I would love to see a law passed that made it so that anyone who pulled money from a non-contributory government fund during the term of any office up for election not be allowed to vote. This would keep the decision making to the people who are a productive part of this society. Of course I realize this will never happen. It is more likely that death row inmates will regain the right to vote.
Well welcome to the boards and have fun but don't look for folks like azdon to all the sudden start making sense.

[steelcomp]

Haven't seen you post here before steel, Don't know if you used to post by another name or not but welcome anyway. Just so you know we can argue until you are blue in the face and we won't change the mind of some of the folks here pushing the liberal/social agenda. Trying to tell these people that having a great place to live and prosper is not as easy as voting themselves a raise is kinda like trying to convince all the poor ignorant people on the web that when they get the email from africa telling them that if they give up their banking information they will become instant millionaires is a scam. It's too good to be true but people fall for it everyday, just like the liberals/socialist continue to foster more and more votes. This country has approached the dependancy phase and people who are looking to push these agendas are really only looking towards the instant gratification and do not realize that they are dooming their children or grandchildren to cleaning up a very big mess.
I would love to see a law passed that made it so that anyone who pulled money from a non-contributory government fund during the term of any office up for election not be allowed to vote. This would keep the decision making to the people who are a productive part of this society. Of course I realize this will never happen. It is more likely that death row inmates will regain the right to vote.
Well welcome to the boards and have fun but don't look for folks like azdon to all the sudden start making sense.
Thanks Mick...posted as motorhead on the RJB site...sort of new to the board here. I know what you're sayin about changing people's minds. I prefer to just try and present them with objective info, and let them make their own choices. Problem is, when the objective info flys in the face of their agenda, and there isn't any real rebut on their part that is valid or true, they attack the messenger. Look at the tactics they're trying to use against the group of Swift Boat Vets exposing Kerry for the liar he is. They're trying to shut them up, instead of calmly addressing the issue, because they know that there is no answer other than he lied! He has what, 5 different versions of his story about being in Cambodia for Christmas? Even Kerry is accusing the group of being funded by Bush, who himself has expresed his dislike for adds like theirs (the SW Vets). Talk about selective sensorship! Where was the GOP outcry against Michael Mooer's POS fictional movie they called a documentary? It was there, you just never heard it through the main stream liberal media. I'm still waiting for Kerry to anaswer the SB Vets' claims. He won't. He's a real piece of work. If that's the best the libs have to offer, it's no wonder they're panicking!
I just don't get it, how what's so obvious, is so obscure.
Thanks again for the "welcome". Should be interesting.

[AzDon]

I hear the issues and the arguements, and it never fails, that it'll be a lib that starts with the foul language, the personal insults, the derogatory comments, but never addressing the issues. This isn't a slam on libs, it's just an observation. ]
Welcome! I'm not sure where you have been hangin out, but around here I've been called every name in the book when the person I'm having a discussion with runs out of logical arguments. The way I look at it, It's at that point that I've won the debate because that kind of behavior is an indication that the other guy's ammo is gone!
I will not resort to namecalling or insults if we disagree... I'd like to think we can be civil and friendly despite disagreeing except that it has been my perception that most folks here that disagree with me want to see me dead over simple disagreement. Being conservative, you will get along fine here, but I'm not treated with much civility around here. In reality, I often feel threatened!

[steelcomp]

Welcome! I'm not sure where you have been hangin out, but around here I've been called every name in the book when the person I'm having a discussion with runs out of logical arguments. The way I look at it, It's at that point that I've won the debate because that kind of behavior is an indication that the other guy's ammo is gone!
I will not resort to namecalling or insults if we disagree... I'd like to think we can be civil and friendly despite disagreeing except that it has been my perception that most folks here that disagree with me want to see me dead over simple disagreement. Being conservative, you will get along fine here, but I'm not treated with much civility around here. In reality, I often feel threatened!
I've been reading the forums for a while, reg'd just recently.
I appreciate and respect your right to your opinion. I also understand most folks attitudes toward your way of thinking, as it is that which is the threat. Your way of thinking and those who you align yourself with threaten the very fabric and foundation of the liberties that SO many gave their lives for which are systematically being taken away from us by the liberal left and their agenda. Your way of thinking is frightening to those of us who so dearly value the freedom of our democracy, and the liberties that go along with it. Your way of thinking threatens our life styles, it ignores our Constitution, it threatens the future of our children's lives and the freedom's they will or won't have. You insult those who stood against the evil forces that have tried to take this away from us, and you discrace their sacrafice. You dishonor our country's heritage and it's history by not recognising the greatness we achieved through the belief of an inherant freedom we were all given by He who created us, not by the laws of a government, or the decisions of man, except through the laws written by those who had the vision and wisdom which they set in place to protect and preserve what we have. (Our Constitution) Your way of thinking and those who you align yourself with are dangerous, and if it were possible to conjeal them into a mass, could be considered an enemy to this country, and that which it stands for. One nation, Under God!
I challange you to read the Communist Manifesto, and measure the parallels between it, and what the lib left agenda is, and where it has taken this country. I challange you to comment on Prof. Olson's observations regarding the last election which I posted earlier, and offer som explainations.
I often wonder if those of you who share the same mind set really understand who and what it is that you are supporting. If you truely understand the motivation behind those at the top of who you align yourself with. It's not American. It's as socialistic and communistic as it can be. And you feel threatened?
Interesting. Appropriate, IMO.

[ratso]

...great post steelcomp. good to see you here...

[Charley]

<------ Steelcomps newest Fan

[dean51267]

Anyone who can not figure that out is an idiot, this law changes very little, it simply brings laws up to date with what the real world is doing.