"Marine" parts vs. cheaper ones

[gstark]

Hotcrusader76:
I'm not quite sure you understand where I am coming from.
I do understand your position, I grew up rodding around SoCal, building engines and doing engine swaps. So I am really familiar with the economies of cars and boats.
But - when safety is an issue, there are no shortcuts.
You have done a fine job convincing yourself (and perhaps others) that usage of non-marine carbs is acceptable because you have an open engine and only run it for a short duration. Unfortunately, your rationale is incorrect because it describes "how" you use your boat, but it does not address the potential effects and consequences of a fuel/carb ignition scenario.
Even if your engine is fully open, with no dogbox, it is easy to have a carb fire. How many times have you seen floats stuck with fuel spilling over? I've seen this many times. Even burned up a truck this way. Add to this a bilge full of fumes (remember, fuel vapor density is greater than air) that could collect in between your 15 minute runs, even in a ventilated area.
Now add an ignition source (standard distributor) and guess what happens.
That is what marine rated equipment is all about. Its design is to minimize risk and prevent life and property damage. The cost of this marine rating is due to the limited market, certainly not to the equipment itself.
I work in the aircraft design industry, and get involved in system certification. I can only tell you that short cuts and bypassing safety items is simply unacceptable in this area. Just look at the consequences of an accident - no further explanation required.
I've seen too many accidents, been in a few myself, to know that in an instant, your life can change. Perhaps the perspective I have is something that comes with time and experience.
I'm just trying to share this, so that you, or anyone else doesn't learn the hard way.

[Hotcrusader76]

gstark:
Hotcrusader76:
I'm not quite sure you understand where I am coming from.
I do understand your position, I grew up rodding around SoCal, building engines and doing engine swaps. So I am really familiar with the economies of cars and boats.
But - when safety is an issue, there are no shortcuts.
You have done a fine job convincing yourself (and perhaps others) that usage of non-marine carbs is acceptable because you have an open engine and only run it for a short duration. Unfortunately, your rationale is incorrect because it describes "how" you use your boat, but it does not address the potential effects and consequences of a fuel/carb ignition scenario.
Even if your engine is fully open, with no dogbox, it is easy to have a carb fire. How many times have you seen floats stuck with fuel spilling over? I've seen this many times. Even burned up a truck this way. Add to this a bilge full of fumes (remember, fuel vapor density is greater than air) that could collect in between your 15 minute runs, even in a ventilated area.
Now add an ignition source (standard distributor) and guess what happens.
That is what marine rated equipment is all about. Its design is to minimize risk and prevent life and property damage. The cost of this marine rating is due to the limited market, certainly not to the equipment itself.
I work in the aircraft design industry, and get involved in system certification. I can only tell you that short cuts and bypassing safety items is simply unacceptable in this area. Just look at the consequences of an accident - no further explanation required.
I've seen too many accidents, been in a few myself, to know that in an instant, your life can change. Perhaps the perspective I have is something that comes with time and experience.
I'm just trying to share this, so that you, or anyone else doesn't learn the hard way.And again I agree with you...My training first stemmed from the ranks of the Military and working on Avionics systems mainly Radar and VHF/UHF systems and safety has always been number one.
At no time do I mislead a customer into believing that the automotive carburetor is the best option with price over safety. Funny thing is I can minimize the risk of fuel spill alone with J-tubes, but with a carburetor having an overflow issue, J-tubes alone will not help! Yes floats do malfuction and stick on occasion, dependant on how they were rigged inside. Just so people understand, at no time would I sell my product with the belief that it's the same as a marine version, and the differences only lye within the J-tubes and shafts. But any carburetor guru will tell you, float problems are the number one blammed part on a carburetor, and keeping them functioning without over-flowing is tricky. But an overflowing carburetor at 3000RPM, J-tubes or not, grooved shafts (not slabbed)or not, will never stop the carburetor from spilling all over the engine when you begin to idle down, specially when these guys run these "Craftsmen" Size fuel pumps running 50psi...when they should be at 7-8psi. It is only going to slow the affects of the spill on the motor.
But hell.....Holley has engineered the design for a Marine safe fuel system, and the coasties (Dept. of Transportation) bought off on it. Whether it was up to par or not....but who is to compete?
[ August 15, 2002, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Hotcrusader76 ]

[Hotcrusader76]

Now when it comes to electrical components....I think the Marine versions are not a bad option. Fuel fumes and spark aren't good combos outside the motor, and a well engineered electronic component is a must in that sort of enviroment. Also the manner in which the epoxy is layed on the circuit boards helps prevent shock damage (ESD) as well as vibration damage due to severe duty use.

[Lake Lifeguard]

Hi Folks,
I just thought I would throw my 2 cents into this. Although the Code of Federal Regulations does not mandate "Marine" components for anyone other than "dealers" and "manufacturers" and permits modifications by the end user, boaters should be very careful about compliance with their state regs which might mandate compliance.
Then there is the issue of modifications invalidating your insurance should an accident occur. Insurance companies are in the business of making money not paying claims so if you give them a way out they will take it.
Lastly, should you sell the boat at some point you would in fact be acting as a dealer and would be responsible for restoring the vessel to CFR 33 standards and various state standards as well. For example, if you sell a vessel in Calif. you would be responsible to make sure that the vessel is "effectively" muffled. Failure to do so could result in costly litigation if something were to happen.
Lets look at a hypothetical situation. You sell your boat as is to someone who wants it "as is". It burns at the fuel dock and the insurance companies involved start looking for 3rd parties to absorb liability. They hire a marine surveyor who inspects the boat and finds that the fuel system was not in compliance with the standards. Then they turn to you saying that you sold a modified marine engine that violated the law and therefore are responsible for the fire and any consequence of the fire such as the dock, other boats and structures.

[Hotcrusader76]

Lake Lifeguard:
Hi Folks,
I just thought I would throw my 2 cents into this. Although the Code of Federal Regulations does not mandate "Marine" components for anyone other than "dealers" and "manufacturers" and permits modifications by the end user, boaters should be very careful about compliance with their state regs which might mandate compliance.
Then there is the issue of modifications invalidating your insurance should an accident occur. Insurance companies are in the business of making money not paying claims so if you give them a way out they will take it.
Lastly, should you sell the boat at some point you would in fact be acting as a dealer and would be responsible for restoring the vessel to CFR 33 standards and various state standards as well. For example, if you sell a vessel in Calif. you would be responsible to make sure that the vessel is "effectively" muffled. Failure to do so could result in costly litigation if something were to happen.
Lets look at a hypothetical situation. You sell your boat as is to someone who wants it "as is". It burns at the fuel dock and the insurance companies involved start looking for 3rd parties to absorb liability. They hire a marine surveyor who inspects the boat and finds that the fuel system was not in compliance with the standards. Then they turn to you saying that you sold a modified marine engine that violated the law and therefore are responsible for the fire and any consequence of the fire such as the dock, other boats and structures.Then hire a hitman...because it just wasn't meant to be....LOL.....
That would suck....Great point!

[propless]

Lake –
You hit the nail on the head. Very few people have ethics today, nobody takes responsibility for their actions – lets blame our parents or our teachers or grandparents.
The fact is, there are specific recommendations that should be followed and owner / buyer beware that if you elect to save a dime to avoid paying a buck, it’s your conscience. These mostly sound recommendations have come from thousands of events, same as OSHA regulations – good sound logical safe practices based on experiences of the past.
Face it, in today’s sue-thy-neighbor society, if you can even remotely be shown to have known that a part was not to have placed on a boat and you sell it or even if a friend is injured because you chose to save a buck – your dead meat, now and for future insurance considerations.
Obtain the right equipment and sleep at ease that if something happened, you’re clean.
propless

[stressedout]

gstark
By the way, USCG certified Holleys have the same front/rear split bowl as non-marine carbs, so it is incorrect that the fuel level is below gasket sealing surfaces.[/QB]GSTARK,
I was not aware of holley marine carbs used for enclosed engines having the same frt rear split fuel bowls as automotive carbs have, the only ones I know of are the model 4010& 4011 which are true marine carbs that the fuel is below any gasket sealing area.Maybe you could give me some model #'s. Thanks......

[djdtpr]

Boy i only hope thet the law doesnt try to start checking everybodys carbs cause it will put everybody i know on the trailer.But im sure if there is a way that they think they can make money off it they will try it.Most of the carb fires i have seen are due to people who should not even be allowed to touch a tool let alone use one try to do work theirselves and screw up if u dont know what u are doing dont touch it!Pretty simple!Well im sure u guys will bash me for this one but im sick of hearing about rules and regulations set by some fat ass sitting behind a desk that doesnt even know what the hell he is talking about!I run a pair of carbs that sure as hell arent COAST GAURD approved.As for hot crusader i havent seen him say his are better or the same as a MARINE carb ive only seen him give his opinion and options!

[BOFH]

Boy i only hope thet the law doesnt try to start checking everybodys carbs cause it will put everybody i know on the trailer.But im sure if there is a way that they think they can make money off it they will try it.Most of the carb fires i have seen are due to people who should not even be allowed to touch a tool let alone use one try to do work theirselves and screw up if u dont know what u are doing dont touch it!Pretty simple!Well im sure u guys will bash me for this one but im sick of hearing about rules and regulations set by some fat ass sitting behind a desk that doesnt even know what the hell he is talking about! I run a pair of carbs that sure as hell arent COAST GAURD approved. As for hot crusader i havent seen him say his are better or the same as a MARINE carb ive only seen him give his opinion and options! Please go back and read my first post. Screw the law... I drive 80+ on the highway, and have enough speeding tickets to paper my wall. I go to clubs and by fine girls under 21 drinks. The boat blew up! It was an outboard, too. To hell with the law, and to hell with the fines. I like all my parts where they are! One time I had an emergency offshore. My boat was thinking, and all I could think of was my passengers. It was scary, and all that happened is that they got there feet wet. (and I lost a boat) I still felt guilty as hell, and I was found to have done everything right! I don't even want to think about how I would feel if I caused some beautiful girl to be burned over half her body...
The only reason to cheat is to save money. If you are that concerned about money, why did you get into boating in the first place? It sure ain't the cheapest thing around...

[djdtpr]

Cheap i guess u can call me that but when u buy a single MARINE carb for 500.00 that wont even buy 1 of my BG carbs,but i guess that makes me cheap.I can respect your point of view.We should do a poll how many people run marine carbs and how many dont,and how many non marine carbs have caused a fire.just an idea.