Reply With QuoteJESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH HAULINAZZ ON EVERYTHING HE HAS SAID, FOR THE PAST WEEK I'VE COME ON HERE TO SEE WHAT HAS BEEN SAID, AND THE ONLY THING I SEE IS A BUNCH OF GUYS WHO REALLY DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT BOATING, THIS IS MY FIRST TIME SAYING SOMETHING ON HERE BUT IT'S REALLY STARTING TO GET TO ME. I'VE BEEN BOATING ALL OF MY 33 YEARS I GO TO CASTAIC AT LEAST 3-4 TIMES A MONTH DURING SUMMERTIME AND HAVASU OR PARKER THE OTHER TIMES AND I'M SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE THAT CAN FINANCE A 50,000+ DOLLAR BOAT AND NEVER FIGURE HOW TO DRIVE SAFELY. I REALLY HOPE THEY DO CHANGE THE LAWS BECAUSE OF THIS. AGAIN HATS OFF TO HAULINAZZ, SOME OF US ARE WITH YOU.
JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gigamurph,
Your really full of yourself.Enough said!
Gigamurph,
Someday you may grow up and leave the "It's not my fault" philosophy behind and start thinking about responsibility and accountability. Put your personal feeling aside and start looking at the tragedy with objective eyes. Wake up!
[This message has been edited by HaulinAZZ (edited January 21, 2002).]
no soap box here, but the last time I read the constitution of the United States it provides "freedom of speech" to all. I spent 4 years defending that right, hope it was not for nothing. I also feel as some of you do that this may not be the time or place to post "opinions" but I must say again everyone here has the right to "theirs", right or wrong. Our prayers are with all involved in this time of sorrow.
Chris
I've got to agree with alot of what HaulinAZZ has to say. Why anyone would "test" there other than close proximity is beyond me. Does owning or building hot boats make you exempt from the law? Weather you agree with the posted speed or not it's still there. I guess it only applies to some, from what I read. I could go on and on but who the hell cares. We'll find out more when it's lawsuit time.
I believe that this board WILL recieve heavy traffic from HTM's insurance companies, insurance investigators, and the lawyers that represent those insurance companies. It could be a very valuable resource in not only gauging hard facts (like MRPUMPS last posts!) but also in gauging boating community sentiment and attitudes about the known or percieved factors which contributed to this tragedy.
We should all be willing to acknowlege that being well over the speed limit and an alleged apparent lack of safety gear are likely to make this a hard incident for the insurers to settle without a fight.
It's important that OTHER boating insurers that might read this board understand that most of us see the perils that this incident represents and do not use our boats to the extremes that they are tested for.
I'll get off my soap box now. None of these posts were meant to disrespect anyone! The intention was to make people think! I was starting to think it was time to sell my boat! The tragedy is over but the problems for those left behind are just beginning as a few others are starting to point out. Boats are just hunks of plastic & metal that can be replaced. Lives are lost FOREVER!
Boat smart and you'll wind up boating safe!
Nice.... Very nice to see this monday morning.
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
[B]River Dave,
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
I guess my point wasn't taken so I'll explain it a little better.
What happened was tragic to say the least.
Let's not speculate. We'll just state what's known.
We had 4 people in a boat not wearing PFD's or Helmets running a boat somewhere between 2-4 times the LEGAL speed limit on a short narrow lake during a high wind advisory. They aren't coming home again!!!
HaulinAzz, first off ATLEAST one of the 4 DID have a PFD on. Secondly I wouldn't put to much stock into what the "eye witness accounts" at Castaic were. During that time of the day there's mostly fisherman on the lake and as soon as they see/hear a blower motor (or two) it's instantly doing 80mph to them.
Thirdly and most importantly, Where do you get off with the "Short & Narrow" Lake routine? Castaic is a pretty "F'n" big lake! Where are you used to boating? The Ocean? I usually go to Parker and that's a "Narrow" piece of strip where 100mph passes are often layed down. How much more room do you want before you think it's safe?
Point 1:4 People were killed in a crash and all of their bodies were recovered without a trace of safety gear.
Uh... Yeah, sure thing bud.. I'll repeat myself again, Ken Lane was found "Near his PFD."
Point 2: Witnesses claim the boats speed to be about 80 MPH. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and said 2-4 times the speed limit (70-140) which is the slowest speed I can imagine a 30" cat getting upside down for any reason. 140MPH is 10 MPH slower than the speed reported the day before (by the chest pounding mrpumps).
70mph is the SLOWEST you can imagine a 30' cat going over for any reason.. Ok.. I could rip on you all day long for that statement alone, but if that's the slowest speed you can imagine any 30' Cat particularly one with alot of freeboard and a High CG (Center of Gravity). I'd be willing to bet you haven't spent a whole lot of time in 26'+ Cats.. And if you have then I invite you the next time you get up to about 60mph YOU GO AHEAD and do a couple of Hard Left and Right Turns.. I'll go ahead and watch from a distance.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif Make sure you wear a PFD becuase YOU WILL END UP IN THE DRINK.. Now I'm not saying that this was the case with the HTM, but you could couple in a Tie Rod failure and a Hydraulics failure or an seized engine and you can get that boat to go over at fairly low speeds. (Once again I'm not saying this was the case with the HTM, slow/fast speeds, or parts failure)
Point 3: There was a high wind advisory that day, I was in the area at the time of the accident and the wind was ripping!
They were plenty aware of the winds on that day. I talked to Chuck on the phone right before it happened and he was telling me that "It was windy as F*** out here today." This is also the reason why I know they weren't out doing any 140mph passes.
Point 4: I've been on Castaic plenty of times. Only once with Steve and triple digit speeds is something that lake isn't suited for!
Now this is DEFINATELY a matter of opinion. I think that lake is MORE THEN FINE for Triple digit passes, and it's plenty wide! I invite you to spend some time in Parker.. That River Gets no wider then 350-400' in some places and I remind you that there is no speed limit set. So is it safe? I seem to think so, which brings me to your screen name....
HaulinAzz... Not Likely.
Point 5: The 35 MPH speed limit exists whether you or any other user of the lake agrees with it. It's like the speed limit on my street. If I think it's too slow and disobey it. I risk the possibility of getting a ticket. If I get too many tickets I lose my driving privileges. Get it???? Or do you have a problem with maturity and responsibility too?? If I break the law (speed) and hurt somebody, they usually consider it criminal. Did you ever hear of involuntary manslaughter??? When I was young and dumb I used to speed on the streets, thump my chest and act like a Jackass in general. I guess I was just lucky enough to grow up and start acting like a responsible adult before I got hurt, or even more tragic, hurt somebody else. Why don't you take your speed grievances to the authorities about Castaic. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to raise the speed limits now, right slick?
HaulinAZZ, Castaic for a LONG TIME has had a more or less "Don't see, don't tell" attitude about high speed passes at "Speed Alley." How do you think it got the name? If you were making these passes right in front of patrol boats they might Talk to ya, and or even kick you off the lake.. However from a distance sometimes it's better to just... Check there watch to see what time it is.
As far as if I have a problem with responsibillity and accountibillity? I think the word maturity were thrown in there somewhere as well.. My response would have to be (drum roll please) I'm not the one that just made this issue personal. Please don't use this event to grind whatever axe you have with me. You come on "preaching" about responsibillity, accountibillity, and maturity and are implying somehow that the people in the boat that day were lacking those qualities (that's bitchin for the families to read that as well I might add) and then some how swing full circle back to me and claim I lack those qualities becuase I disagree with you? Becuase I'm trying to be a little more sensitive to the feelings of the families of those lost? I don't think that there was any other intention that I had other then that.. (and not that he needs me to stand up for him, but Gigamurph either).. so why did you make this personal assault on me?
I believe you and Bigorangefan, were "preaching" freedom of speach, and telling old Gigamurph who made him the board god? So if I dissagree with you and excersize that right now I'm lacking in those three qualities? As well as ridiculing Gigamurph for excersizing the same right that your preaching about? When all he did was post how he felt? I think perhaps you should really look in the mirror before you start throwing jabs at someones character. Later in your post you mentioned being "Young and Dumb" near as I can tell nothing has changed but the #.
Is there something here you think is untrue or disagree with???
I don't know if it's untrue, true and no I don't necesarrily dissagree with any of it. I'm just saying that you DON'T KNOW for sure. I could put up theories all day long, and believe me I have mine, and I'd be more then happy to run them by you, as well as listen to yours on the subject as I am genuinely interested in what they are.. I'm just wondering if this is the right place to do it? Your more then welcome to shoot an e-mail my way if you'd like to talk about it, it certainly will make you feel better about the tragic events. I don't even mind if you unload on me and call me what you like or imply certain things about me, I'd just appreciate that you didn't do it in here. However becuase of your "freedom of speech" I suppose you can do what you like, but I beg of you don't just think of yourself here, think of all the others whom are suffering and really don't want to hear you.
I don't think I've speculated at all.
I'd be more then happy to debate that with you via e-mail.
If I WERE to speculate I would say that from the chest thumping that mrpumps was doing the day before. The group talked about the doubting souls regarding the speeds they achieved the day before. As a group, I would speculate they discussed all the immature name throwing that went their way and decided to show us all! The egos had to be raging! I wouldn?t be surprised if they took a camera to photograph the GPS and post it for all to see on the web. Something then went terribly wrong! If they don?t (and probably won?t) recover the boat, then we?ll probably never know if it were mechanical failure, driver error or a design flaw with a PROTOTYPE (less than 5 built) boat! We all read the posts the day before, so speculation is not only going to happen, it?s completely warranted!!!!! We were reading the posts the day before remember.
In one part of this post your saying that you didn't speculate, but now you are saying that the speculation (implying your speculations) are completely warranted.
Didn?t you edit several of your posts? Were you ashamed of what you said? Not man enough to stand behind your words?
No, I'm not ashamed of what I said, and Yes I am man enough to stand by my words. The reason that I edited ALL of my posts regarding HTM's Boats was out of respect for the families. I knew that it wouldn't be long before they came in here to seek comfort and support, and I really didn't think that they wanted to read my views on HTM boats, or about any misunderstanding between myself and Mr.Pumps.. (actually his brother in law). So I took them down. It was all fun and games and I admit that I gave HTMRacing my fair share of sh*t, but it was more or less in a joking manner. Things stopped being funny as soon as that accident occurred. So I did what in my mind was the right thing.
Hopefully this tragic series of events plays out through your mind when you try to open a can of whoop ass on somebody when you?ve had a few to drink and the conditions might not be quite right!
HaulinAZZ, don't lecture me like that. As far as some people are concerned there is no "right" conditions to open a can of whoop ass or drink in a boat. I happen to have extremely different views on both of those subjects.. Once again I'd be more then happy to share them with you just not in here. Start a topic in HotSpots or elsewhere on the board and I'll debate it with you all day long.
Any time lives are lost, especially in motor sports, a thorough investigation and sometimes speculation should be used to EDUCATE those continuing the sport TO NOT HAVE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN! Shit happens, but stupid shit shouldn?t.
Things happen in boats... If you have been boating for a long time then you come to grips with that and understand.. even embrace it. Comments like your last one, Your "closer" if you will "Shit happens, but stupid shit shouldn't." is very true. However if your implying that what happened to these four guys happened becuase of "stupid" behavior then I would say your speculating. I agree stupid shit shouldn't for example some jack ass know it all throwing around his free speach rights in the faces of mourning families...
ONE LAST THING... Free speach only goes so far bud.. This board ISN'T real life, perhaps that's why your so immune on your feelings.. Your CIVIL RIGHTS really don't mean jack sh*t around here. If the tribe votes that your an asshole, then your an asshole. That's pretty much all there is to it.. No Ex presidents are going to come running talking about the constitution... Don't kid yourself bud, It's more like the show Survivor whatever the tribe does, the tribe does..
RD
Riverdave2
it's apparent you didn't read my whole post. "I SAID I DID NOT THINK THIS IS THE TIME OR PLACE TO POST OPINIONS ON THIS EVENT" but anyone that knows anything about the freedom of speech (Weather the hell you like it or not "BUD" gives you or anyone on this board the right to voice their opinion, right or wrong. As much as I disagree with your composition I would defend your right of expression to the "END". I beleive someone said it in another post, this could be debated via e-mail so as to protect the sensitivity of the family.
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