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Thread: MPH estimate question

  1. #11
    SHIFTY
    TELL ME WHAT YOU COME UP WITH, AND IF IT's COMPARABLE TO WHAT YOU GPS AT...

  2. #12
    LVjetboy
    jbone,
    JPC's speed estimates are based on a generic drag curve fitted to your measured speed/rpm or drag point. Speed extrapolations for large, heavy or deep v hulls can fall below that curve, smaller light-weight tunnels may rise above. The farther you extrapolate (or up your power) the more magnified these differences will be.
    Your 21' shockwave is a heavy/large jet so projected speed may fall short if your hull drag curve is significantly different from the generic curve in the 58 to 70 mph range you're considering.
    That said I have an example of a 21' Daytona w/an AT AA that matches the JPC's drag curve very well from 23 mph all the way to 88.8 mph (top end). In fact, for that jet JPC under predicts top end by 2.8 mph if the on plane drag point of 23 mph/2500 rpm is used, and over predicts top end by only 0.2 mph if a 78 mph/5000 rpm drag point is used. Not bad considering a 21' jet or even a smaller jet. I can also give an example of an 18' jet falling well below the curve because it had a bad hook in the bottom...throwing the drag curve well off-norm for that size jet. The more power he added the more it plowed water...not something a speed predictor can account for.
    But even with the generic drag curve, the JPC's a good speed predictor for small changes (100 hp) and not bad in some cases for larger changes (300+) By comparison, the speed predictor used by the prop guys is based on a bogus "prop slip" factor and no drag curve, so in many cases less accurate IMO.
    Finally, as with any calculator, the result only as good as the numbers in and how well you understand what comes out.
    People often throw numbers around with few details then ask what's up? A recent impeller thread mentions 800 hp and A vs. AA without including impeller mfg or rpm. Then hope for an informed response? Others quote corrected power and expect to see that spin their pump to xxxx rpms. And they boat at 1500 feet in temps equating to 4000 DA w/oversized impellers and wonder why? Without details, any predictor can churn out junk. Pump curves btw are based on actual power to the pump not corrected.
    In your case, an AT A @ 4800 means 350 hp spinning it according to AT pump charts*. Is your quoted 415 hp based on a dyno test, mfg rated at xxxx rpm, or a software program. Is that number corrected and does your engine produce it at 4800 rpm? If you're gonna accurately predict a new speed you need to know details as best you can then compare apples to apples.
    Let's assume 415 is a corrected number and your engine reaches that power at 4800 rpm. Now with upgrades you estimate a new corrected (apples-to-apples) power of 540 hp at 5400 rpm. That's 125 more.
    Enter your drag point (58 mph @ 4800) in JPC. At 4800 your AT A absorbs 351 hp. Based on your predicted power increase: 125 + 351 = 476 hp. (Or you can calibrate the impeller to corrected numbers either way same answer) Enter 476 hp on the right and you get a new speed of 69 mph at 5316 rpm. Will your new engine develop peak power at 5300, 5400 or 5450 rpm? If you're impeller's not matched to your new engines peak power then you won't see the full power gain. A small performance jet running off-peak can loose as much as 5 mph top end. For a bigger jet maybe less but things add up.
    If your drag test point was on a cold day and your new engine top speed measured on a hot day...things add up.
    JPC can't account for everything and by nature it's ballpark. Just a tool to help give direction not to predict your next time slip. But I think it's a notch above the prop slip wag published in HBM. At least JPC takes a stab at how hull drag drives performance. If I had time I'd program an option to enter a custom hull drag profile. That and corrected to actual power calculations. Those two issues alone account for most of the diferences in opinions and misunderstandings in power vs. speed talked about on this forum. Then it'd be done. Maybe.
    jer
    *Note: AT pump charts are published. As for how accurate they are, or how well someones raggedy a** dinged impeller...or for that matter fully-detailed race impeller with tight clearances matches AT pump charts, you decide. There's a calibrator if you choose. More importantly, pump charts are a good starting point and show trends (the cubic relationship of power vs. rpm) based on impeller design and cut. Even with real world pump wear and assembly, trends adjusted for variances can still help predict performance.

  3. #13
    SHIFTY
    I HOPE YOU DON't THINK I WAS QUESTIONING YOUR INTELLIGENCE OR CORRECTNESS. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I DON't KNOW S H I T. YOU're GOING OFF CALCULATIONS, I'm GOING OFF A 10 BEER INDUCED GUESS...

  4. #14
    LVjetboy
    ANYBODY WITH A RUNNING MOTOR GET AN ACCURATE READ OFF THE CALCULATOR? NOT KNOCKIN' IT, JUST CURIOUS.
    Well me for one.
    Old engine: 454
    Impeller: Berk B
    Rpm: 5000
    Speed: 76 mph
    JPC power: 338 hp
    New engine: 540
    Impeller: Berk B (same)
    Tested Rpm: 6200
    JPC predicted speed: 102 mph
    Tested speed: 100 mph
    JPC predicted power at 6200 rpm: 643 hp
    Dyno measured power at 6200 rpm: 634 hp*
    *Dyno DA was close to tested DA for top speed run
    That's w/in 2 mph for a 300 hp change. Impeller spun to within 9 hp of predicted according to dyno and Berk pump charts. My power numbers are a bit more accurate than a DTD wag. I also matched my tach to the dyno tach rpm, speed verified by both pitot and GPS. Impeller and pump same.
    jer

  5. #15
    SHIFTY
    MAYBE I'm DOIN' SOMETHIN' WRONG YO.
    496 STROKER TALL DECK TWIN TURBO
    ESTIMATED... AGAIN, ESTIMATED 800+ HORSE.
    AB IMPELLER.
    76 ELIMINTATOR BUBBLE DECK, SPEEDCOATED BOTTOM, NO HOOK, BLUEPRINTED BERK (JC CONVERTED TO SPLIT BOWL) - JimB.'s OLD BOAT.

  6. #16
    steelcomp
    good to hear from you, jer.

  7. #17
    jbone
    LV,
    Thanks for the very informative explanation.
    In your case, an AT A @ 4800 means 350 hp spinning it according to AT pump charts*. Is your quoted 415 hp based on a dyno test, mfg rated at xxxx rpm, or a software program. Is that number corrected and does your engine produce it at 4800 rpm? If you're gonna accurately predict a new speed you need to know details as best you can then compare apples to apples.
    They apparently don't publish the hp rating on the Indmar 502. They say it is about 415 though. I wouldn't be surprised to find out I was only putting out 350 hp. After all, that is what the impeller says I'm doing.
    Enter your drag point (58 mph @ 4800) in JPC. At 4800 your AT A absorbs 351 hp. Based on your predicted power increase: 125 + 351 = 476 hp. (Or you can calibrate the impeller to corrected numbers either way same answer) Enter 476 hp on the right and you get a new speed of 69 mph at 5316 rpm. Will your new engine develop peak power at 5300, 5400 or 5450 rpm? If you're impeller's not matched to your new engines peak power then you won't see the full power gain. A small performance jet running off-peak can loose as much as 5 mph top end. For a bigger jet maybe less but things add up.
    Cstraub is making a cam to produce peak power at 5400 rpm. It still looks the AT A impeller is the one to go with. When I'm done. I'll try the AA to see what it does. I know ST likes the bigger impellers.
    Thanks for the tool. I'll post in a few weeks to let you know how close it came.
    J

  8. #18
    SHIFTY
    ALL THIS IS A GOOD READ, ESPECIALLY SINCE I'm STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE MY ASS IS.

  9. #19
    sanger rat
    Good to have you back Jer.

  10. #20
    SHIFTY
    Bump.

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