Drinking discussions

[ULTRA26 # 1]

It is the probable cause issue that has been ignored, not re written....
As it is now they stop a car that leaves a bar. Ask the driver if he/she has been drinking, (they already know), then the "step out of the car please" and the rest is downhill from there. This motorist did nothing to indicate there was any imparement whatsoever. But now that the ol' breathalizer comes out and shows the magic .08 the arrest report will show that the officer truly excelled in the creative writing class at the academy.....And the courts turn a blind eye toward probable cause based on the arrest report. Alot of the jurisdictions do not want cameras in the "duece" patrol vehicles because the video could be used by the defendant to show there was no traffic infraction, no license plate light out, etc etc......Tinted windows, no front plate, equipment violations, baubles hanging from the rearview mirror, are all probable cause to stop and roust........Very few .08 drivers have actually done anything illegal EXCEPT drive at .08, but the officer could not possibly know that prior to the unwarranted stop......Alan's referece, (another thread) to the high courts decision about stops on the water is a real reach on an inland, landlocked waterway......As i said, it will be status quo until the issue of probable cause is re visited, and re instated........I do not advocate impared driving. I also do not advocate un warranted fishing expeditions in the guise of saving lives unless and until the same effort is put forth to rid the road of unskilled dangerous drivers that will cause deaths sober......MP
Years ago, when I played music for a living, I spent great deal of time in bars. Obvioulsy, the band never left before clsoing time. I don't recall LE hanging around, in wait of people to leave. Things must have changed.
Seems one of your points is a drunk driver who kills shouldn't face stiffer penalties than the sober driver who kills.

[Moneypitt]

Alan, no disrepect intended towards your. You statement about sitting on bars in Az is quite possible. Here in Ventura County it is quite different. The SO does sit on bars. They have been directly responsible for the closure of several local watering holes. Still, to this day, they sit around the corners from what bars are left. They even stalk the higher end establishments on weekends and do exactly as I said, roust, test, arrest, and write the report. Oh, and the video is never available.....unless it shows the defendant in a bad light. Also, here in VC, 85-90% of the judges are ex DAs, so the deck is stacked against justice most of the time. I dated a para legal, as well as an attorney active in the VC courts and had occasions to review cases for appeals......Wow, what they say is right on, Come to Ventura County on vacation, leave on probation...I remember a case, that was won on appeal, where the defense had photographic proof the SO lied on the report, and on the stand and the judge refused to dismiss.......The 2nd district saw it different.........Oh, the defendant owned a bar, which is now closed due to stalking SOs.......I do not drink and boat.....Used to, no more. I do, as stated several times, limit my consumption and have a cocktail or 3,4 after work occasionally......Over a period of hours, and usually with food.....And last Saturday night I took a cab, again......In contrast to Alan's statement about sitting on bars, the BHC police seem to have a different outlook to that practice along Hancock road at closing time.......I've seen it alot from the PS shop.........Not from the bars parking lots...........Ray

[ratso]

Alan, no disrepect intended towards your. You statement about sitting on bars in Az is quite possible. Here in Ventura County it is quite different. The SO does sit on bars. They have been directly responsible for the closure of several local watering holes. Still, to this day, they sit around the corners from what bars are left. They even stalk the higher end establishments on weekends and do exactly as I said, roust, test, arrest, and write the report. Oh, and the video is never available.....unless it shows the defendant in a bad light. Also, here in VC, 85-90% of the judges are ex DAs, so the deck is stacked against justice most of the time. I dated a para legal, as well as an attorney active in the VC courts and had occasions to review cases for appeals......Wow, what they say is right on, Come to Ventura County on vacation, leave on probation...I remember a case, that was won on appeal, where the defense had photographic proof the SO lied on the report, and on the stand and the judge refused to dismiss.......The 2nd district saw it different.........Oh, the defendant owned a bar, which is now closed due to stalking SOs.......I do not drink and boat.....Used to, no more. I do, as stated several times, limit my consumption and have a cocktail or 3,4 after work occasionally......Over a period of hours, and usually with food.....And last Saturday night I took a cab, again......In contrast to Alan's statement about sitting on bars, the BHC police seem to have a different outlook to that practice along Hancock road at closing time.......I've seen it alot from the PS shop.........Not from the bars parking lots...........Ray
They have really hit the bars hard here up and down the highway... DPS, Sheriff Dept, Waco PD, TABC... When I was bouncing at one of the clubs here on the highway, I could step outside, and more often than not, cops had somebody pulled over. They have a nice little "speed trap" too that goes from 70 down to 60 in the middle of nowhere. You'll almost always see a cop sitting off in the ditch at night where the speed limit changes... Never ever during the day, but from about 10 or 11pm til 2am...

[Flyinbowtie]

Alan, no disrepect intended towards your. You statement about sitting on bars in Az is quite possible. Here in Ventura County it is quite different. The SO does sit on bars. They have been directly responsible for the closure of several local watering holes. Still, to this day, they sit around the corners from what bars are left. They even stalk the higher end establishments on weekends and do exactly as I said, roust, test, arrest, and write the report. Oh, and the video is never available.....unless it shows the defendant in a bad light. Also, here in VC, 85-90% of the judges are ex DAs, so the deck is stacked against justice most of the time. I dated a para legal, as well as an attorney active in the VC courts and had occasions to review cases for appeals......Wow, what they say is right on, Come to Ventura County on vacation, leave on probation...I remember a case, that was won on appeal, where the defense had photographic proof the SO lied on the report, and on the stand and the judge refused to dismiss.......The 2nd district saw it different.........Oh, the defendant owned a bar, which is now closed due to stalking SOs.......I do not drink and boat.....Used to, no more. I do, as stated several times, limit my consumption and have a cocktail or 3,4 after work occasionally......Over a period of hours, and usually with food.....And last Saturday night I took a cab, again......In contrast to Alan's statement about sitting on bars, the BHC police seem to have a different outlook to that practice along Hancock road at closing time.......I've seen it alot from the PS shop.........Not from the bars parking lots...........Ray
MP,
Your description of what goes on in V.C. really pisses off those of us who try to do it right.
FWIW, a cop today who gets caught lying on the stand or preparing documents that are later determined to be intentional fabrications can get his ass in huge trouble. There is a case out there called the Brady Decision, and it requires Prosecutors who have knowledge of an untruthful cop to really lean against filing ANY cases he/she brings forward, and that "Brady Material" is, I believe, subject to a Discovery Motion by the defense, which means that the cops' credibility on the stand is shot, and pretty much cannot be rehabbed. The officer you spoke of would, based on what you have written, be subject to a Brady challenge. We had policy in our dept. that made a Brady violation grounds for serious discipline, and in some cases termination.
I see this as a good thing, the job is difficult enough to do without fighting to keep our credibility.
Geezus, my spelling is junk. I'm goin' nitey-nite..

[Moneypitt]

MP,
Your description of what goes on in V.C. really pisses off those of us who try to do it right.
FWIW, a cop today who gets caught lying on the stand or preparing documents that are later determined to be intentional fabrications can get his ass in huge trouble. There is a case out there called the Brady Decision, and it requires Prosecutors who have knowledge of an untruthful cop to really lean against filing ANY cases he/she brings forward, and that "Brady Material" is, I believe, subject to a Discovery Motion by the defense, which means that the cops' credibility on the stand is shot, and pretty much cannot be rehabbed. The officer you spoke of would, based on what you have written, be subject to a Brady challenge. We had policy in our dept. that made a Brady violation grounds for serious discipline, and in some cases termination.
I see this as a good thing, the job is difficult enough to do without fighting to keep our credibility.
Geezus, my spelling is junk. I'm goin' nitey-nite..
You know what they say about one bad apple spoiling the whole basket. I know the majority of cops out there are honest hard working people, just like non LE people. It is the judges here in VC that have let the bad apples run amok.......All this hype about being safest city, (Simi Valley/Thousand Oaks) has distorted the court system into it's own little world. How many defendants have the wherewithall to appeal away from the tyrant judges...The cop gets a rep for arrests, the DAs get a rep for convictions, and the judges, even if voted out of office by the people, (John Hunter) will be assigned judical duties by the presiding judge because they are so understaffed, Ha....It is truly out of control here.......
I remember years ago no self respecting officer would even think about sitting on a bar. It was considered un ethical, now it is done on a regular basis here in VC and other jurisdictions as well......CHP has had their "duece hunt" for years, and still do....Running blacked out until right behind an unsuspecting driver then hitting them with everylight they have. I've seen it......As someone else said, like a christmas tree at closing time, all around the bar districts.............MP