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Thread: Torque-Shift Props

  1. #1
    Garry S
    I have a 2000 21 ft. Regal with a 5 litre EFI (Gi 250 PSHP) on a Volvo SX drive. Original prop was an aluminum 14 1/4 X 23 which topped out at 65-67 mph. but was doggy out of the hole and definitely over proped for skiing.
    I bought a Torque-Shift from Land and Sea which starts at a 13 pitch and can go up to 32. It has a Z cam and a 155-132 hub. I spent some time tuning the prop as per instructions and was extremely impressed with the performance, same or better top end and true ski boat jump out of the hole. My only problem was that the prop would often stick at high pitch. This is supposed to be normal until it is broken in so I put up with it for several weekends and it improved slightly. I changed from 30 lb. shift control springs 45 lb ones to maintain slightly higher rpm during climb out which it did but the sticking persisted. I disassembled the prop and cleaned the bushings, double checked for binding on the synchronizer ring and limit screws several times, all to no avail. I called Land and Sea when the prop had about 70 hours on it and the only thing that they could suggest was to replace the blade shank bushings which I did. It didn't fix the problem. Does anyone have an experience with these props and can you give me any advice? When it works it is awesome. I don't mind disassembling and cleaning it a few times a summer but that doesn't correct the sticking.
    The prop is mint and hasn't hit anything. A moderate bang on the synchronizer ring with a block of wood will snap it back into low. Can you hook me up with people who use these props? Any help greatly appreciated. By the way I love the Regal...the stepped hull really works and this prop would really put the finishing touch on all around performance.

  2. #2
    Jim Nichols
    I put one on this year. The factory sent it with the wrong cam so it took a while to get it dialed in, in fact I was still dialing it in when winter interfered. I changed from Z to Y to ZZ cams and 30 to 15 back to 30lb springs. Got the run around from factory. New ZZ can is not fully broke in yet and was slow to down shift. Will get more time this spring. How hard was it to change bushings ?

  3. #3
    Garry S
    How did you know that you had the wrong cams? Did they ship different ones than you ordered or was the performance that made you change? I'd be interested in your experience on how the shift changed when you went from Z to Y and then to ZZ. Were any of the profiles more prone to sticking in high pitch? Did Land & Sea exchange them or did you have to buy each new set? My upshift seems about as good as you could hope for....RPM jumps to 4500 within a second or two and hits 5100 WOT. within 3 to 4 seconds. It climbed quite a bit slower with 30 lb. springs. RPM holds steady and the speedo climbs very quickly and smoothly. After two or three climb-outs one or more blades will stick at full pitch...slowing gently or even reversing seldom frees it. My pitch limiting screws have to be screwed in far enough that the tips of them were binding on the synchronizer ring so I had to file the outside edges off of them. There is no bindage there now but the sticking problem is the same. I still don't like the fact that the screws have to be in that far and was wondering if a cam change might fix that.
    As for changing the bushings it was quite easy. They recommend that you cut the old bushing longways with a hacksaw blade but I wasn't to keen on attempting that so I made a homemade puller by finding a washer that was the same size as the outside diameter of the bushing and epoxying a nut to it. I filed two flat spots on the edge of the washer directly opposite each other so that when the nut and washer were turned edgewise they would drop thru the bushing. There is lots of room once the nut/washer is thru the bushing to flip it over flat against the inner edge of the bushing and you have a threaded hole to pull by. I used a short piece of pipe that was big enough to let the bushing go inside it as a spacer, put a big washer on a bolt with lots of thread and screwed te bolt into the nut/washer assemble that I'd placed inside the hub. It pulls the bushing easily and doesn't put a mark on either the bushing or hub. The new bushing taps in easily with a piece of wood to protect it and light tapping with a hammer. The biggest job is drilling a hole in the new bushing for the blade retaining pin after the bushing is installed. I guess they thought that it would be too hard to install the bushing with the hole aligned if it was predrilled. I changed bushings because they had started to crush and squeeze some of the waxy surface material
    from the inner part of the bushing into the centre part of the hub. I may have caused this by lubing the bushings with WD-40 to try and prevent the sticking. It did stop the sticking but was short lived and may have softened thr bushings. How much power are you running?

  4. #4
    Garry S
    How did you know that you had the wrong cams? Did they ship different ones than you ordered or was the performance that made you change? I'd be interested in your experience on how the shift changed when you went from Z to Y and then to ZZ. Were any of the profiles more prone to sticking in high pitch? Did Land & Sea exchange them or did you have to buy each new set? My upshift seems about as good as you could hope for....RPM jumps to 4500 within a second or two and hits 5100 WOT. within 3 to 4 seconds. It climbed quite a bit slower with 30 lb. springs. RPM holds steady and the speedo climbs very quickly and smoothly. After two or three climb-outs one or more blades will stick at full pitch...slowing gently or even reversing seldom frees it. My pitch limiting screws have to be screwed in far enough that the tips of them were binding on the synchronizer ring so I had to file the outside edges off of them. There is no bindage there now but the sticking problem is the same. I still don't like the fact that the screws have to be in that far and was wondering if a cam change might fix that.
    As for changing the bushings it was quite easy. They recommend that you cut the old bushing longways with a hacksaw blade but I wasn't to keen on attempting that so I made a homemade puller by finding a washer that was the same size as the outside diameter of the bushing and epoxying a nut to it. I filed two flat spots on the edge of the washer directly opposite each other so that when the nut and washer were turned edgewise they would drop thru the bushing. There is lots of room once the nut/washer is thru the bushing to flip it over flat against the inner edge of the bushing and you have a threaded hole to pull by. I used a short piece of pipe that was big enough to let the bushing go inside it as a spacer, put a big washer on a bolt with lots of thread and screwed te bolt into the nut/washer assemble that I'd placed inside the hub. It pulls the bushing easily and doesn't put a mark on either the bushing or hub. The new bushing taps in easily with a piece of wood to protect it and light tapping with a hammer. The biggest job is drilling a hole in the new bushing for the blade retaining pin after the bushing is installed. I guess they thought that it would be too hard to install the bushing with the hole aligned if it was predrilled. I changed bushings because they had started to crush and squeeze some of the waxy surface material
    from the inner part of the bushing into the centre part of the hub. I may have caused this by lubing the bushings with WD-40 to try and prevent the sticking. It did stop the sticking but was short lived and may have softened thr bushings. How much power are you running?

  5. #5
    Jim Nichols
    Gary S., I have a 85'SeaRay Monaco, 2800 lbs 185 deep V. Merc Cruiser Alpha 1.50 ratio. Old prop was Michigan stainless 19X20. Sluggish pulling deep start skier, top at 4600 about 52 on speedo. This info was givin to sales person each time I called to get parts. They recomended model that came with Z cam & 30lb springs. It worked as you described, went almost instantly to 4200 but I was having to over trim to get it to begin shifting then when it did shift it would over shift and rpm would drop below power range. However that same trip I hit a rock at 40mph and dinged two blades and synchronizer ring. Replaced parts and got 15lb springs recomended by sales desk and added extra ring and gauge and spring tool. Symtoms did not go away and sales deck thought maybe I did not break it in properly. Sales desk now suggests Y cam and will exchange for Z if not damaged. Sent in Z got Y cams. Symptoms are worse even with 15lb spring. I call factory again and I suggest ZZ cam, they think its worth a try, they say they will send them tomorow Sept 8th. Well after waiting several weeks ( I was trying to be forgiving at this terible time, but sales rep never sent it)I call again they say sorry must be lost will send again. I finally get ZZ's and after a short breakin the ZZ cam seems to be the correct ones, but I need more break in time to see if it will shift up and down as hoped. I now carry a spare difuser / syncronizer ring and spare blades. I have to pry the prop off output shaft each time, is yours that way? I did have to pay for springs and spare parts but cams were exhanged. I noticed my bushings had some waxy residue forming at the inside end but seemed to not be worn excessivly should be only 12 hours total run time. It is tempting to try lubercate, but will stay away from that idea. Down shift with latest set up was slow, putting in reverse does not help, almost needs a complete stop to get it to down shift all the way but I never had to tap it. Have you bench tested to see which blade is hanging up? Could be a cam has a sticky spot or blade retaining pin binding?. Every time I called the factory they asked if I broke it in properly. Sounds like it is a common problem. My limit screws are not that far in to interfere with the ring. I did use feeler gage to make sure all were set at same depth. Prop is 13X26 set at 21". RPM now maxs at 4300 and 54mph. What about vibration ? I get a strong vibration at slow speeds, but goes away on planning speeds, solid hub they say. I live in the NW so I wont be on the water again until late May or June. I hope I get the thing working right eary or I'll never here the end of it from my wife and friends. But I do love the hole shot and it makes pulling tubers a whole lot more fun. Thanks for the bushing idea.

  6. #6
    Jim Nichols
    Sorry for the typo. 1985 SeaRay 18' open bow.

  7. #7
    Garry S
    Jim
    I am in Brandon Manitoba Canada so like you it's going to be some time before I get back on the water. As for your vibration I would be suspicious that one of your blades is sticking and not going all the way back to low pitch. I have exactly that kind of vibration when I have a stuck blade once you get some speed up it disappears because the other blades increase pitch and match up with the stuck one. I have the rubber cushioned hub. Watch and see if the vibration is there on the first run after you have had the prop apart or at least have had it off and checked the pitch on each blade. I don't have a pitch gauge but I just sit the prop on a flat surface with the synchro ring up and then use a tape measure or ruler to measure the distance from the flat surface up to the tip of each blade. If you do this with the springs hooked up and then again with the springs unhooked and the blades extended touching the limit screws you will find out if everything is running true at both low and high pitch or at least I think that should give equal pitch on all blades. I'd be interested to know if your pitch gauge confirms that. I know that they say to use a feeler gauge to check the setting of the limit screws but I found this to be quite a bit more accurate. I think the vibration is a lot more likely to be caused by slight sticking or by one blade out of pitch than by the solid hub.The synchro ring is flexible enough to allow this to happen. Can you tell me how far out the tips of your limit screws are when you measured with the feeler gauge? I think that mine are extended too far and the pins on the blades don't seem to be hitting squarely against them. I am concerned that under load they somehow bind against each other. Also at high pitch my springs are almost digging into the inner side of the synchro ring. Is yours like that?
    All I did to break in my prop was to take it easy on acceleration and vary my throttle for the first 6 or 7 runs avoiding full throttle for the first few times. My runs weren'tmore than 10 or 15 minutes each. Did they give you any specifics as to what they thought was a proper break-in?

  8. #8
    Jim Nichols
    Gary,
    I set the pitch limit screws with feeler gage while blades were at full pitch just so all 3 would be equal. The contact points vary depending on machining of screw tip, some just barely touch edge to edge others have full contact. However after looking at it I noticed that the screws have been leaving a very slight rub mark on inside of sychro ring and the springs are rubbing on hub near the top. I dont think it is enough to cause any hang up and when bench testing all seem OK. The pitch gauge has some slop but I found that if I am consistant on which side of slop I measure from it works fine.
    The limit screws do not extend beyond the inner machined surface. In other words if you look straight down from the top the tip of the screw is about even with the opening.
    I will check next time out for blades retracting all the way evenly for wobble problem.

  9. #9
    Garry S
    Jim
    Thanks for the info on the limit screws. Mine are about 1/16 of an inch out past the flat surface when you look in from the back of the prop with everything assembled. If you are in doubt as to whether or not they bind on the synchro ring try sliding the ring on and off the hub with the blades removed also rotate it clockwise and counter clockwise when it is in place on the hub. My limit screws were definitely biting into the ring when I tried to rotate the ring clockwise. I could see the corners of the screws protruding out past the edge of the hub when I sighted along the outer edge of the hub with the synchro ring removed. I set the limit screws and then filed off the protruding corner. Not the best... because I can't adjust them unless I go exactly 1 turn but it eliminated and chance that the ring will hang up on the screws. My ring was definitely gouged some where it had been rubbing on the corners of the screws.
    How do you bench test your prop? Did you build something to mount it and spin it up to propshaft speed or did you find a marina that could do it. I assume that you spin it in air not water as that would be next to impossible. One more question ....are the tips of yor limit screws almost flat with only a slight rounding at the edges or do they havequite around nose? I'm really interested in how you bench test!

  10. #10
    Jim Nichols
    Gary,
    I thought the same thing as you regarding grinding the tip would help clearence but mine is only scuffing and not digging in ring. Sorry I may have misled you on the bench test. I am doing the same as you, while on work bench I test blade travel with and with out springs attached. Everything moves freely with out springs. Screw tips are flat. I have to pry prop off spline every time, does yours the same? Do your springs rub hub near blade opening. Mine have left some deep (for little spings) wear marks on the hub ?

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