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Thread: Lou Dobbs on CNN

  1. #21
    HighRoller
    a civilized standard of living IS the bithright of ALL of our citizens
    WRONG! The only birthrights our citizens are entitled to are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. NOWHERE in the constitution does it say we are guaranteed a certain economic standard of living. We the citizens of this country have always aspired to MAKE the standard higher through hard work. Your entitlement mentality is why this country is losing the battle in so many ways. Listen to yourself, Don. You buy only U.S. made stuff, without relizing that the foreign competition is the ONLY reason U.S. made goods aren't junk. Do you think your American made car would be as nice if there wasn't a similar Japanese model it had to compete with? NO! Look at the American car industry in the 60's and 70's when the quality just kept spiraling downwards until we hit the early 80's and the Japanese took over. If the Japanese had never pushed us, our U.S. made cars would still be crap today because there WOULD BE NO INCENTIVE FOR IMPROVEMENT.

  2. #22
    mirvin
    AzDon, you're sounding more and more moderate
    Mirvin

  3. #23
    HighRoller
    Don, in a capitalist society the citizens are only ENTITLED to what they EARN, and how much they earn is dictated to them by the free market and the demand for their skills. Your ideas of guaranteeing everybody a fair wage for life are nothing short of socialism. Money is what motivates companies to be better, and the ability to earn more money if you work harder is what made the country great. Just because the business landscape changes from time to time is no reason to start saying the sky is falling. If you can't find a job you can always move, get more education or change industries. It's called freedom of choice. YOU have to go get the dollars, they will not find you.

  4. #24
    eliminatedsprinter
    The problem I see between capitolism and government regulation can be summed up in a sports analogy. Government is supposed to be the referee, it is not supposed to step in and attempt to fix the outcome.

  5. #25
    JakeAisA
    Originally posted by AzDon
    Okay Jake-
    I get that you are a USC graduate that probably grew up in an affluent area of OC and work with your dad, Busti (either making him reeeallly old or you reeeallly young) I'm entertained and amused by your "pure economics" opinions that seem to come purely from textbooks and an IGM snobbery that shows complete disrespect and insensitivity for other Americans that haven't been blessed with a priveledged upbringing and opportunities that you have. Perhaps you consider blue-collar people to be whiners and leaches that provide services of very little, or no value to you. Perhaps you have no need for these services at all and think all these folks should retrain and go into real estate like you! Perhaps you think retraining is a piece-of-cake for undereducated people making minimum wage and that they should need no help accomplishing this.
    Have you ever hand -stacked freight, pushed a lawnmower professionally, or been so desperately unemployed that you've taken a paper route???? I Have!! I have also started, nurtured, and eventually closed down a business that wasn't going to work out.
    Your "pure economics" arguments, if allowed, unchecked, to become reality, will result in a diminished lifestyle for every working American...YOU INCLUDED... as the wages we expect are taken away and given to foriegners willing to do our jobs cheaper. Do you really believe that this won't eventually affect the price of real estate or cause retrainees to flood the field and drive commissions down?
    We need to first, admit that we have an immediate responsibility to take care of the health of our own country's economic well being before allowing companies doing business here to export our jobs in pursuit of a fast buck! Who will buy all these imported goods when we've all been reduced to "world community" wages?
    Your dad has obviously done his job with regard to seeing that you get the education needed to succeed financially in life, but you have underdeveloped insight into the fact that ALL JOB DESCRIPTIONS are important to our society and a civilized standard of living IS the bithright of ALL of our citizens, AND THIS REQUIRES HIGHER THAN WORLD MARKET WAGES!!! It is the reason that our poorest citizens have running water, electricity and flush toilets. It is also the reason that US Americans remain the world's most dedicated shoppers!
    I've taken my lumps in life, learned my lessons, and done okay! All five of my vehicles and boat are American made, and cash paid for..... What do you drive?
    Azdon:
    I understand completely where you're coming from and I'm not trying to be insensitive in the least bit. You're right about a couple things about me...you're wrong about more. My whole point here is that when markets are free and progress is allowed, hard working people, regardless of natural ability or birth status, find ways to create and perform more profitable and lucrative products and businesses. All I'm trying to say is that the "working men" in America would be better off if they weren't forced, bribed and conned into working in less and less profitable industries. I say this honestly and from the bottom of my heart--America is better off shipping mature industry jobs, like manufacturing, and sticking to the more profitable and progressive endevours. I'm not saying this becuase it sounds good. I'm saying because it's the truth. It is in all of our interests to make sure as many people are as well off as it is possibly attainable in all of us. How can we do that? By keeping on our feet, by being the leaders in the world in terms of technology and growth, by remaining the smartest and bravest society ever known. We cannot do this if we close our economy off from the rest of the world. We cannot do this if force mature, old, unprofitable businesses to stay here while allowing the rest of the world to catch up and then dominate in the more profitable, high growth ventures.
    Think about it. The world is turning to free markets. Everyone is advancing. New technologies are being created. Foreign societies are increasingly stressing education and hardwork on thier children. The rest of the world is beginning the drop the ancient and outdated "victicrat" mentality in favor of capitalism. They're starting to realize that they too can do it, they too can do what we do, that they too can make something out of nothing, regardless of the circumstances they were born in. In light of this trend, America cannot afford to think that we can exist without trying to compete against these forces. Because if we do not decide to remain the freest and most productive economy in the world, someone else will. The fall of America will be our own fault. It will be our own arrogance that will be to blame. We cannot afford to ignore these trends.
    You see, whether we like it or not, whether you like it or not, the world is growing and a world economy is beginning to take shape. It's happening no matter what. We have two choices--ignore it and go one assuming we're the only economy on earth or recognize it, remain the leaders, take advantage of the opportunity to pass off easy endevours to asia and south america in favor of the more profitable, more lucrative opportunities.
    For example, what if America had refused, as a society to adopt the computer? What if America had refused to ship computer hardware production overseas because we wanted "Americans" to "manufacture" computers and the software? Would our software industry have been as big and dominating if our businessmen didn't recognize that software is the place to be because computer production is an increasingly bad business to be in--becuase the components are easy to make and its easy for foreign businesses to get into without having to invest so much time and money like software requires?
    The world is going to be players and we want to be doing what makes us the most. This is optimal for our economy and every American. Is there less certainty? Yes. But that's capitalism. I'll guarantee you the rewards are many times over.
    Americans need to see themselve as traders, as mini CEO's of thier own labor. We will be passed up by the world if we grow up thinking that our first job is a right and that we have a right to die doing that job. Americans need to constantly be looking for ways to improve thier own earning power. Also, they have to aware of thier situations and recognize when other opportunities are worth their time and effort. They need to stress education and independence to thier children. This country will slide into mediocrity otherwise.
    Now, I said you were right about a couple things and wrong on others. First, I am young (26), but my father isn’t (53). I did go to Junior Highschool and Highschool in Orange County, North Huntington Beach. But I grew up before then in Riverside and North Huntington Beach isn’t what I consider affluent—it’s more of a cross section of all income levels. I wasn’t born affluent and with a silver spoon in my mouth. My parents worked hard for what they provided us, but they were definitely not wealthy. My parents would tell you that they just barely got by while my brother and I were in school growing up.
    Now, did I go to USC? Yes…on scholarships, grants and loans. I earned it. My parents couldn’t afford college and they knew it…so they forced me to earn it. I wasn’t allowed to have a job during Highschool. I was allowed to play football and I was told that my main job to was to be a good citizen and study hard. I asked for a job—my father refused—he told me to study instead.
    Now, about my “naïve bookworm arguments.” Let me tell you something about USC. It’s just as liberal as the rest of the universities in America. Their business school is pretty much middle of the road, but the rest of USC is run by and controlled by the same sheltered socialists that run every other campus. I was in the minority there. My views were not learned in college. My “economics” is not from college. I’ve sought it out.
    Now, I don’t know if I’ll ever get you to agree with me, but I do hope you understand my point—Every American is better off if we stress education and character, if we free up our businesses and stress the importance of staying on the cutting edge. I believe your way will have us lose our claim as the lone super power of the world. I believe your way will force poverty, despair and mediocrity on the bottom rung of Americans. I believe your way and the Democrat way will hurt poor and working class Americans the hardest. Why? Because the wealthy won’t stay. When there’s a better place to do business then America…they’ll leave. The poor and working class will have nothing at that point. America is what it is because the best and the brightest are clawing over themselves to get here and then prosper here. When there’s some place better to do that, they’ll leave. What will that do to for the “working man.”
    You see, I think your way is uncompassionate in the end because it leaves nothing but mediocrity for lower skilled Americans. Instead, we need to be teaching our children that they can only rely on their own judgement. That they must work hard in school and earn everything they have. They must be taught that great opportunity is out there and that all they have to do is work hard to get it. In America, a poor black kid from ghettos of Queens, NY, can earn his way to Harvard and the top of any industry he wants…if he works hard for it. Look at Colin Powell. He did it. Look at Sam Walton. He did it. You don’t have to be born of privelage to make it in America. You just have to work for it. That should be the message, not that you have a right to everything for nothing because dammit, you’re born poor. That’s foolish and its destructive.

  6. #26
    AzDon
    Highroller- You apparently would have no problem with Burger King employees living in cardboard shacks on the edge of the garbage dump....just as long as they show up clean and wash their hands. ALL SUBSTANDARD WAGES ARE SUBSIDIZED BY SOMEBODY! The reason you don't recognize a problem with sub-civilized wages is that the kids working at BK are clean because their parents (thank to a living-wage job) provide the civilized lifestyle that BK minimally requires of applicants. If the BK employee is a single mother, Than WE AS TAXPAYERS subsidize BK.
    Two of my vehicles are full-size Chevy trucks from the 70's and I don't believe that they had any foriegn competition at that time (or even now!)
    I believe that in 1976, when my crew-cab was new, Honda Civics outsold Chevy pickups, yet I can't remember the last time I saw ANY Honda Civic from the 70's (???) I'm not aware of ANY foriegn-made tow vehicle that's worth a sh*t.... at any price!
    Foriegn stuff better? don't make me laugh- it's just cheapo!

  7. #27
    eliminatedsprinter
    Originally posted by AzDon
    Okay Jake-
    I get that you are a USC graduate that probably grew up in an affluent area of OC and work with your dad, Busti (either making him reeeallly old or you reeeallly young) I'm entertained and amused by your "pure economics" opinions that seem to come purely from textbooks and an IGM snobbery that shows complete disrespect and insensitivity for other Americans that haven't been blessed with a priveledged upbringing and opportunities that you have. Perhaps you consider blue-collar people to be whiners and leaches that provide services of very little, or no value to you. Perhaps you have no need for these services at all and think all these folks should retrain and go into real estate like you! Perhaps you think retraining is a piece-of-cake for undereducated people making minimum wage and that they should need no help accomplishing this.
    Have you ever hand -stacked freight, pushed a lawnmower professionally, or been so desperately unemployed that you've taken a paper route???? I Have!! I have also started, nurtured, and eventually closed down a business that wasn't going to work out.
    Your "pure economics" arguments, if allowed, unchecked, to become reality, will result in a diminished lifestyle for every working American...YOU INCLUDED... as the wages we expect are taken away and given to foriegners willing to do our jobs cheaper. Do you really believe that this won't eventually affect the price of real estate or cause retrainees to flood your field and drive commissions down?
    We need to first, admit that we have an immediate responsibility to take care of the health of our own country's economic well being before allowing companies doing business here to export our jobs in pursuit of a fast buck! Who will buy all these imported goods when we've all been reduced to "world community" wages?
    Your dad has obviously done his job with regard to seeing that you get the education needed to succeed financially in life, but you have underdeveloped insight into the fact that ALL JOB DESCRIPTIONS are important to our society and a civilized standard of living IS the bithright of ALL of our citizens, AND THIS REQUIRES HIGHER THAN WORLD MARKET WAGES!!! It is the reason that our poorest citizens have running water, electricity and flush toilets. It is also the reason that US Americans remain the world's most dedicated shoppers!
    I've taken my lumps in life, learned my lessons, and done okay! All five of my vehicles and boat are American made, and cash paid for..... What do you drive?
    Wow, this view into the mind of a class warrior is really worth looking at again.
    Hmmm, not exactly following Dale Carnagie's methods of winning friends and influencing people.......

  8. #28
    AzDon
    The only definition of an old, obsolete job, seems to be that someone else is willing to do it cheaper. We're losing software and tech-helpline jobs to India and Asia. Machinists and tool-and-die makers are losing jobs to overseas companies as well. In this age, foriegners can learn or copy valuable technology nearly as fast as we can create and identify potential career paths. Since virtually any job can be done cheaper by foriegners, what is a fair way to decide which jobs go and which jobs stay? I don't believe that it's our right (as a society) to pick winners and losers (such as telling Safeway that they can't pay Burger King wages), but if we don't get a handle on this "Exodous to cheapness",nobody in this country is going to be offerred opportunities for honest work because between job exporting and illegal aliens, nothing will pay enough.
    So, young Mr Smartguy, What do you propose that we train people to do that can't be mudwrestled away from them by a cheaper labor market?
    The only solution I can see is to only reward companies with access to our market that have purchased a majority of their content and labor from other Americans, or have paid an appropriate share of our social costs for not doing so!
    I believe that no income taxes should be levied against individuals, and all businesses (after a 5 year start-up period) should pay 5% of their WORLDWIDE gross earnings as the cost of doing biz here. The only tax credits or deductions allowed would be for employing Americans or doing business with American suppliers. If Honda and Toyota don't like it they can dump their sh*t someplace else. The IRS staff could be reduced and collections per investigation would increase because they'd be chasing fewer, bigger tax cheats.
    And to show my libertarian side... I'd have no problem with eliminating Unemployment, Social Security, Disability,Medicare, welfare, etc,etc. But I'd want all the funds paid into these programs on my behalf returned to me!

  9. #29
    eliminatedsprinter
    Originally posted by JakeAisA
    Azdon:
    I understand completely where you're coming from and I'm not trying to be insensitive in the least bit. You're right about a couple things about me...you're wrong about more. My whole point here is that when markets are free and progress is allowed, hard working people, regardless of natural ability or birth status, find ways to create and perform more profitable and lucrative products and businesses. All I'm trying to say is that the "working men" in America would be better off if they weren't forced, bribed and conned into working in less and less profitable industries. I say this honestly and from the bottom of my heart--America is better off shipping mature industry jobs, like manufacturing, and sticking to the more profitable and progressive endevours. I'm not saying this becuase it sounds good. I'm saying because it's the truth. It is in all of our interests to make sure as many people are as well off as it is possibly attainable in all of us. How can we do that? By keeping on our feet, by being the leaders in the world in terms of technology and growth, by remaining the smartest and bravest society ever known. We cannot do this if we close our economy off from the rest of the world. We cannot do this if force mature, old, unprofitable businesses to stay here while allowing the rest of the world to catch up and then dominate in the more profitable, high growth ventures.
    Think about it. The world is turning to free markets. Everyone is advancing. New technologies are being created. Foreign societies are increasingly stressing education and hardwork on thier children. The rest of the world is beginning the drop the ancient and outdated "victicrat" mentality in favor of capitalism. They're starting to realize that they too can do it, they too can do what we do, that they too can make something out of nothing, regardless of the circumstances they were born in. In light of this trend, America cannot afford to think that we can exist without trying to compete against these forces. Because if we do not decide to remain the freest and most productive economy in the world, someone else will. The fall of America will be our own fault. It will be our own arrogance that will be to blame. We cannot afford to ignore these trends.
    You see, whether we like it or not, whether you like it or not, the world is growing and a world economy is beginning to take shape. It's happening no matter what. We have two choices--ignore it and go one assuming we're the only economy on earth or recognize it, remain the leaders, take advantage of the opportunity to pass off easy endevours to asia and south america in favor of the more profitable, more lucrative opportunities.
    For example, what if America had refused, as a society to adopt the computer? What if America had refused to ship computer hardware production overseas because we wanted "Americans" to "manufacture" computers and the software? Would our software industry have been as big and dominating if our businessmen didn't recognize that software is the place to be because computer production is an increasingly bad business to be in--becuase the components are easy to make and its easy for foreign businesses to get into without having to invest so much time and money like software requires?
    The world is going to be players and we want to be doing what makes us the most. This is optimal for our economy and every American. Is there less certainty? Yes. But that's capitalism. I'll guarantee you the rewards are many times over.
    Americans need to see themselve as traders, as mini CEO's of thier own labor. We will be passed up by the world if we grow up thinking that our first job is a right and that we have a right to die doing that job. Americans need to constantly be looking for ways to improve thier own earning power. Also, they have to aware of thier situations and recognize when other opportunities are worth their time and effort. They need to stress education and independence to thier children. This country will slide into mediocrity otherwise.
    Now, I said you were right about a couple things and wrong on others. First, I am young (26), but my father isn’t (53). I did go to Junior Highschool and Highschool in Orange County, North Huntington Beach. But I grew up before then in Riverside and North Huntington Beach isn’t what I consider affluent—it’s more of a cross section of all income levels. I wasn’t born affluent and with a silver spoon in my mouth. My parents worked hard for what they provided us, but they were definitely not wealthy. My parents would tell you that they just barely got by while my brother and I were in school growing up.
    Now, did I go to USC? Yes…on scholarships, grants and loans. I earned it. My parents couldn’t afford college and they knew it…so they forced me to earn it. I wasn’t allowed to have a job during Highschool. I was allowed to play football and I was told that my main job to was to be a good citizen and study hard. I asked for a job—my father refused—he told me to study instead.
    Now, about my “naïve bookworm arguments.” Let me tell you something about USC. It’s just as liberal as the rest of the universities in America. Their business school is pretty much middle of the road, but the rest of USC is run by and controlled by the same sheltered socialists that run every other campus. I was in the minority there. My views were not learned in college. My “economics” is not from college. I’ve sought it out.
    Now, I don’t know if I’ll ever get you to agree with me, but I do hope you understand my point—Every American is better off if we stress education and character, if we free up our businesses and stress the importance of staying on the cutting edge. I believe your way will have us lose our claim as the lone super power of the world. I believe your way will force poverty, despair and mediocrity on the bottom rung of Americans. I believe your way and the Democrat way will hurt poor and working class Americans the hardest. Why? Because the wealthy won’t stay. When there’s a better place to do business then America…they’ll leave. The poor and working class will have nothing at that point. America is what it is because the best and the brightest are clawing over themselves to get here and then prosper here. When there’s some place better to do that, they’ll leave. What will that do to for the “working man.”
    You see, I think your way is uncompassionate in the end because it leaves nothing but mediocrity for lower skilled Americans. Instead, we need to be teaching our children that they can only rely on their own judgement. That they must work hard in school and earn everything they have. They must be taught that great opportunity is out there and that all they have to do is work hard to get it. In America, a poor black kid from ghettos of Queens, NY, can earn his way to Harvard and the top of any industry he wants…if he works hard for it. Look at Colin Powell. He did it. Look at Sam Walton. He did it. You don’t have to be born of privelage to make it in America. You just have to work for it. That should be the message, not that you have a right to everything for nothing because dammit, you’re born poor. That’s foolish and its destructive.
    Jake
    This is a nice try but it's wasted on a closed mind..... I'm not even sure this is AzDon you are talking to here. The style I'm seeing today looks more like that of his son.
    AzDon is usually a little more temperate in his responses.
    AzDon, No disrespect intended, but is that really you?

  10. #30
    HighRoller
    I'm laughing at how closed minded AZDon is towards FACTS. If Burger King employees are living in a cardboard shack that's because they have neither the desire nor the education to get a better job. Minimum wage was not designed for families to live on, it's for people who are getting their start in the employment sector. It used to be that you started at minimum wage and worked your way up by gaining more skills and education and you were reawrded with better wages. And foreign cars are cheap crap? Puh-lease! Show me any website, magazine or other source that has a list of top cars where more than half of them were not foreign. Don't get me wrong, I like American cars too but Nissan, Toyota and Honda have been kicking ass for a long time. So please don't let your personal feelings intrude on your reason. I don't agree with most of the trade policies either, and I don't consider Toyota an American made car because they have a factory here. The profits still go to Japan. But how come you're not praising these companies for the thousands of jobs and billions of dollars they supply to our economy? You gotta be consistent, Don.

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